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Cafe Tropico  |  Tropico  |  Strategy, Hints and Cheats (Moderators: CafeDave, Mr.P)  |  Topic: Education and disparity
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fephisto
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« Reply #25 on: 05/04/07 at 11:47 AM »

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Regardless of that, the point for your tests is that the Cannery (or any of the other second level processing "factories") does not require "stuff" to process in order to be completely functional as employer(s).

I realized this, and only built the wharfs if I ran out of possible build orders.
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fephisto
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« Reply #26 on: 05/04/07 at 12:19 PM »

Sorry, didn't mean to double-post, but I don't think there's an 'edit previous message button', and I just wanted to say one more thing.

I know I can't do much analysis, and what I may say is probably pretty obvious but I might as well say it.

The number one thing is that people will look for a job, so if you keep firing uneducated people, they'll eventually fill up the High School, if you keep playing the 1/2/4 payscale game, you can get this to occur also.

I'm pretty sure specific type education (military/parochial) only changes the person being educated's views, and doesn't increase or decrease the number of people from say the religious or militaristic factions to get educated.  However, when religious or military jobs open up, people high in support in the religious or militaristic factions seem to be the first to go into school to try and get these jobs.

I believe educational levels try to permeate down the family.  On the first game, the one HS student still trying to graduate is the daughter of one of two college people (the general), this occured despite there being income equality across the board and open jobs in both the uneducated and educated sectors.

As another odd effect, the 1/2/4 game had an incredibly high birth-rate.....

Building a clinic, yet having it unstaffed, seems to make people quit complaining about heathcare.....same with churches.  One of the games in there, I had a church/cathedral unstaffed, yet was able to issue the pope edict...

I should've saved this game too, but if you keep playing the 1/2/4 game with both the social security and ABC edicts, it doesn't seem to have much of an affect.  So, I'm thinking the game looks for determining education in this order:  1)  where is there a job available, 2) how much more 'actual coins' it pays, as opposed to thinking 'this job will pay me twice as much!', but 3) the actual money that the unit already has at his/her own job I don't believe makes a difference.

There is one other thing, these were tested with a very small population, the next run of tests, if I do them, I'll chose the largest population possible.
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Richard40
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« Reply #27 on: 05/04/07 at 11:12 PM »

...  But that reminded me of another question.  I saved the following list of occupation ages from an old post:
·   16 for soldiers
·   18 for journalists, policeman, teachers, barmaids, showgirls
·   21 for bishops, doctors, bankers, professors, generals, priests, pitbosses.
What I wondered about was whether this list is complete, and if it is, why is there no age limit for engineers, like there is for all the other college jobs?...

There are a couple of additions. Rebels have to be 18. Mothers (linked with marriage) have to be either 16 or 18, not specifically reported.

We know from developer reports that some occupations have to be older than the 13/14 when Children change to Adults. This arose from reactions by the play-testing groups who were horrified to see 14 year old Soldiers (against UN Conventions), Mothers (age of consent in Chile is still 14), Barmaids, and Showgirls. At stake was the ESRB rating. So, modifications to the first version of the game had to be made. Besides the minimum ages for units, there are minimum ages for "customers" at the Pub, Nightclub, Casino, and Cabaret. No one has reported those ages specifically.

The list you got from the old post is based upon a report from only one user as posted here. So far as I know, there has not been a complete verification of that report. Why Engineers were not included, and why Journalists are 18 instead of 21 - I can't say. For that matter, why Pitbosses & Priests are 21 instead of 18, and why Soldiers are 16 instead of 18 - are questions.

I raised the question about your comment because all the minimum ages previously reported are open to verification. I also need to note that from time to time, "newbies" post fantastic reports of "child brides" and other rather silly stuff that they can't prove. There is no challenge to reasonable reports, but we always look for well established trends rather than shocking changes.

You have given me an idea for a project, to finally do a comprehensive test to verify the age restrictions.  Unfortunately, to do it I need to use the editor, to create an island with special initial buildings, and a specially tailored population.  The problem is I'm not sure I have the editor.  How do you call it up.  The manual says nothing about it.  The Poptop site had a download site for a map editor and a paridise island editor, are these what I need.  If so, the popup site download does not seem to work.  Can you help me on getting the editor, and using it?

My plan to verify the age figures is to do the following:
1.  Have an ititial placement with no dock (to prevent anybody from leaving), enough farms to feed everybody, plus good housing, plus enough buildings to provide a decent sample (3-4) of every job category that might be in dispute (caberet, barmaid, and all educated occupations).
2.  Create an initial population with all college educated 13 yr olds, enough to fill every building, plus enough cash to never go bankrupt, and no random events.
3.  Then start running the island.  The buildings with no age limit should have workers immediately.  The others should acquire workers in the year when the workers get old enough, establishing their minimum age.

I would appreciate any suggestions on whether my plan should work, and also help in getting the editor.
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« Reply #28 on: 05/05/07 at 06:56 AM »

...  The problem is I'm not sure I have the editor.

Everyone with a patched to date version running on Windows has the Editor.

Look here:
http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=8089.0

The Scenario Creation / Scripting documentation is in the map editor documentation from PopTop compiled into one Word document. Now updated for editor version 1.03 and version 1.5 Paradise Island, with annotations by Cafe Dave. Conditions and effects reorganized for easy reference.

I don't know where all it may be available for download. One place is here:
http://www.strategyplanet.com/tropico/downloads.shtml
The third item under "Map Editor."
Good luck with "FilePlanet."

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My plan to verify the age figures is to do the following:
...
2.  Create an initial population with all college educated 13 yr olds, enough to fill every building, ...

Number 2 is not practical. The Add Unit Mode has no facility to control age and education, much less marital status and the several other unit personality variables.

It is possible to control age grossly only by the Unit occupations Baby, Child, Retired and other. Within those categories, ages are entirely random.

Education is set by occupation. Initially created Babies, Children and Retired are natively uneducated. The other occupations natively have the minimum education required upon their creation.
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« Reply #29 on: 05/05/07 at 12:45 PM »

CK,  Thanks for the 2 links, they should help a lot.
Thanks also for your comments on point 2 of my age limit verification plan.  You are right, that idea wont work, but you description of unit creation gave me other ideas.
You are also right, that this test might be off topic.  If I have more to report, I'll start another thread.
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« Reply #30 on: 05/17/07 at 06:53 AM »

I found time to try out, if it is possible to get an immgration office with the editor when playing with the "Immigrants Out!" special circumstance - it isn't even possible to build this with the editor, not with conventional building, not with Shift-O.It seems that you still have to meet all conditions to place a building when operating with the editor (money, power, prequesite buildings,...)
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« Reply #31 on: 05/17/07 at 07:22 AM »

I found time to try out, if it is possible to get an immgration office with the editor when playing with the "Immigrants Out!" special circumstance - it isn't even possible to build this with the editor, not with conventional building, not with Shift-O. It seems that you still have to meet all conditions to place a building when operating with the editor (money, power, prequesite buildings, --)

Thanks for that report.

I never worried about money when building with the editor on -- I just used EXACTO to give myself a huge amount.

However, I never had a problem with the other conditions. I'll try to check it again today.
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« Reply #32 on: 05/17/07 at 11:21 AM »

... - it isn't even possible to build this with the editor, not with conventional building, not with Shift-O. ...

You must have not only the EDITOR toggled on but also the cheat RAPIDO toggled on!

With both of those toggled on, you can build anything - I believe.

I did not go through everything, but I think if you don't use RAPIDO, the buildings you place in EDITOR mode just sit there and wait for the Laborers to build them when you start running the game. That's not much help if you are putting together a scenario.

I did not create a new island with the condition "Immigrants Out" for my quick test. So that still has to be done.

Sorry for my faulty memory.

 Embarrassed Undecided
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« Reply #33 on: 05/17/07 at 02:41 PM »

Thanks for the hint, with using "RAPIDO" it works.I set up a game with "Immigrants out!", entered the editor, build the Immigration Office and runned the island for a couple of years - the "Immigration" office is fully functional, as far as I can say."No one gets out alive" decreases emigration up to 100%.Even the other (under this special rule pointless) immigration options can be set.

Finally a way to play both without immigration and emigration Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: 06/04/08 at 09:53 AM »

... How much of an influence does the pay rate have as an education incentive, exactly?  For example, if all three levels were the same rate, ...

This interesting thread deserves to be "bumped-up," and given a link:

http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg186001#msg186001

The link is a reminder that the optimal pay scale is not just three levels relating to the education levels, but rather five levels relating to the social and economic importance of statistical segments of a population.

>> I've adopted a tactic of paying my people in quintiles, as opposed to a flat 3 pay levels for uneducated, educated and college.
  • All unskilled jobs are paid the lowest quintile;
  • All high schoolers are paid the 2nd lowest, except -
  • Priests and soldiers who are paid the middle quintile.
  • All college jobs are paid the 2nd highest quintile except -
  • Doctors, Bishops, Generals and Engineers who are paid the highest quintile.
My starting pay scale starts at 61/12/15/18/21 And gradually scales up from there.
1For short time only, quickly raised to 9. <<

It is quite easy to adjust the scale downwards; or to adjust it to a relationship other than education levels, e.g. usefullness in your society. The point is using five levels rather than just three.

Quintile pay just means 20% brackets.
  • 1st quintile - top 20% of the people (the rich)
  • 2nd quintile - 21-40% of the people (the solid middle class)
  • 3rd quintile - 41-60% of the people (the solid working class)
  • 4th quintile - 61-80% of the people (the working poor)
  • 5th quintile - 81-100% of the people (the bottom of the barrel, often unemployed)
Note that you can have more than one quintile reflecting the same pay rate.
Average pay: Take all the pay and divide by all the people.

In Tropico, the 5th quintile will typically rush to leave, if permitted.

Q: Then using that as a guide, if I want to make sure that my citizens are happy, I would compare the 5th quintile number with the Average Caribbean Pay number and make sure it was higher?

A: No, you don't want your lowest quintile higher than that average since the place will be flooded with immigrants.  You will have an overall average, and you want that to be the indicator to compare to the Caribbean average pay. Your 'Almanac' lowest quintile can be zero if you have a large unemployed population, but the overall average can still be higher than the Caribbean average pay.

Do not overlook that your payscale also affects how you set your housing rents and manipulate charges at entertainment buildings. A fiscally sound Presidente recaptures as much of his generous wages as possible.

 Cheesy Undecided
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« Reply #35 on: 06/26/08 at 10:37 AM »

I was reminded of an old thread which has some gems to be picked out of it.

http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=741.0

The initial point of the thread is that a student - and that is a 'unit' with the 'Student' avatar - does not have to be "actually present" in the school building to be learning. One has to remember that seeing an avatar in a building does not necessarily mean that the unit is actually there. To check, one has to select the unit from the avatar in the building and then locate the unit in the round window. The point made also seems to indicate that the education period is relatively short.

Post #5 makes an important point about experience which is an important aspect of the efficiency and productivity of workers. While it is well known that workers do not have to be "actually present" if their job is performed only inside their employment building, it is not so well known that they gain 'on-the-job' experience only when they are "actually present" there. So it is useful to try to maximize their time 'at work' physically. Perhaps some of the broadcast learning aids may off-set this need to be present, but we don't know for sure.

Post #11 points out that Babies and Children may occupy rental housing although they can not pay rent. I have also observed widows occupying rental units when they could not pay the rent. When parents emmigrate, their under 14yrs children will follow them - but perhaps not immediately. Their babies are simply abandoned, but will not starve. True orphans are on their own - but rare.

Post #14 is correct in pointing out that the college has a modest 'positive' beauty rating. The HS has a small negative.

 Grin Cool
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