Tropico 3 announced

[Coconut Kid]

(snip) The Bulgarian development company knows the games that sell. It knows nothing about the game setting -- especially its inspiration Hidden Agenda. They will "improve" it to the point that you will be sick to your stomach over the results.

If I am wrong, I will apoligize. Look at the time frame they have set. Do you wish to guess at the number of corrective patches they will have to issue on such massive change? But it is short enough that I probably will still be alive.

It appears that this is the post which lead the representative of Haemimont Games who visited here to conclude that I had a "thing" against Bulgaria. Yes, I apoligize for implying that there are no people in Bulgaria who are knowledgeable about the 20th century history of the Caribbean and Latin America. Certainly there are. But how was I to know that so many would be employed in the computer game development industry?

Once again I will state that I distrust the marketing departments who drive the gaming world for the unrelenting blood & guts, crime ridden games. Meanwhile, I am sure that Bulgarians can do as well as Americans in understanding 20th century history in Latin America.

While Tropico has 'ugly' aspects, they are marginal. One may play the game without using or emphasizing  them. Some players do emphasize them. But that is a far cry from "Grand Theft Auto" in which bloody crime is central to all paying styles.

[TeamStar]

We're supposed to be celebrating, not seeing trouble around every corner. If we want to help, we must have a positive attitude towards it.

[el_malo]

We're supposed to be celebrating, not seeing trouble around every corner. If we want to help, we must have a positive attitude towards it.

Actually, we should be doing both.

I'm glad that there is the possibility of a Trop3, but I have no reasons to believe that what we
get... will be what we want.

I'm leery and distrustful of game companies and their "we know what is best" attitudes.

Take-Two and Pop-Top never had a problem... urinating on their player-base.

If Haemimont Games, and kalypso media, want me to be less skeptical, come to this forum and
convince me other-wise.

CK has put forth several valid concerns.

Providing answers to these concerns... is the correct way to elicit my support.

[Coconut Kid]

We're supposed to be celebrating, not seeing trouble around every corner. If we want to help, we must have a positive attitude towards it.

Have you read:
http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=10977.0

 

[el_malo]

You know, one of the big reasons that I hope there is a "good" Trop3 released.. it may bring back MrP.

I really miss him.

If the developers add some tanks... he will be hooked 

[TeamStar]

Have you read:
http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=10977.0

 

I was referring to what you have written here, not elsewhere. But it's your way of seeing things, this subject is finished for what I'm concerned.

[TeamStar]

A quote from the developers:

we know well this wish list.
our designers are tropico fans and several ideas for enhancing the game play already match with some points in the wish list. 

(...)

for the game. it's a bit early to reveal specific game details. the way to do that is official press releases by the publisher.

It looks like it's coming our way, folks! Let's hope so see it next summer!

[Coconut Kid]

I was referring to what you have written here, not elsewhere. But it's your way of seeing things, this subject is finished for what I'm concerned.

 

I'm worried because I don't understand. I wish to keep good relations with you, but I don't always know what my words in type mean to others.

I had/have a concern that the Haemimont folks may have thought the "Wish List" thread was the only such list. That board is 'loaded' with suggestions.

Now the comments on the Haemimont forum show them as visiting and reading here. I am concerned what they may see as serious suggestions which may actually be just comments made in jest.

What am I to do?

 

[Coffeebean]

Here's what I found at the Haemimont Games website:

"Tropico 3 announced! Viva El Presidente!
November 20, 2008

We at Haemimont Games are proud to announce Tropico 3, developed in partnership with Kalypso Media. The game will return to the roots of the series, putting the player into the shoes of "El Presidente" - a dictator governing over an island banana republic. Staying true to spirit of Tropico, the new game will be a construction and management simulation with heavy emphasis on city building. Tropico 3 is scheduled to be released in the second half of 2009."

http://www.haemimontgames.com/

[Anguille]

Just want to say hi...i am the moderator of Haemimont's forum (yep, there's just me  ). I just want also to clarify: while i am the mod, i do not work for Haemimont nor have i more information than what i can find on internet. I can only speculate or repeat things i've read or seen. Some words on myself: i am an avid played of strategy games and also city-builders. I've played all the games by Impression games and more. While i do own Tropico 1 and 2, i did not have enough time to play them (just played the demo of Tropico 1 so far).

Cheers

[el_malo]

Anguille, thanks for stopping by.

There are rum fizzies at the bar.

Watch out for the tarantulas 

[Capitaligous]

I don't think we have to wait.

But what do you think multiplayer should have to do with "fighting"? One player the dictator and the other, the rebel commander? Economy building? Who is to be in charge of that?

 

 Well, by the looks of the Haemimont Games forum, there won't be any shoot-em-up (at least that's what I've found)

Multiplayer could be turn-based, like many other multiplayer games I've played, with a focus on civilian life and another, more militarial edition.

And what I meant by economy-building was basically city-building, with more emphasis on that then on the military aspects of it.

I'm sure they won't blow up the military aspects that much, if any at all.

[Coconut Kid]

Here's what I found at the Haemimont Games website:
"Tropico 3 announced! Viva El Presidente!
November 20, 2008 ..."

Thanks Coffeebean!

The date is interesting. I posted a new thread about T3 on their forum on November 19th.

It is also interesting that they use the phrase "a construction and management simulation" which sounds just like "Tropico is a construction and management simulation computer game developed by PopTop Software and published by Gathering of Developers in April 2001." from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropico

That makes Tropico sound like SimCity on a tropical island. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_and_management_simulation

This kind of framework throws the political strategy which most/many of us find the real attraction of Tropico straight into the dumper. What it really sounds like is nothing more than a new setting for The Settlers - Blue Byte Software 1993/94.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers

I don't think Wikipedia mentions that Tropico - while built on the RR Tycoon computer engine - was inspired by "Hidden Agenda" - a government simulation game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Agenda_(computer_game)
http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/sw/games/hidden-agenda.html

I am very uncertain how to tell Haemimont Games that most of the old timers don't want yet another building & management game which SimCity & The Settlers do quite well. I think most of us want a government/politics simulation in which one economic tool is building. If Tropico is to be improved upon, it should be in the political arena - the interaction of the Player/Dictator with the population of citizens (and tourists).

Perhaps some of you others may wish to chime in on this?

 

[Coconut Kid]

... I am an avid played of strategy games and also city-builders. I've played all the games by Impression games and more. ...

While fans of "city-builders" may enjoy Tropico, it seems too easy to overlook the political strategy basis of the game.

In any case, welcome.

[el_malo]

I think most of us want a government/politics simulation in which one economic tool is building.

I have not seen anythnig to indicate that the new developers have abandoned your above concern.

The game will return to the roots of the series, putting the player into the shoes of "El Presidente" - a dictator governing over an island banana republic.

[Coconut Kid]

El Malo,

I guess you read "Staying true to spirit of Tropico, the new game will be a construction and management simulation with heavy emphasis on city building" far differently than I do.

I read the definition of "construction and management simulation" in 'Wikipedia.' It includes:

City-building game is a subgenre of CMS where players act as a city-planner or leader. Players normally look at the city from a point-of-view high in the sky, to grow and manage a simulated city. Players are only allowed to control building placement and city management features such as salaries and work priorities, while actual building is done by game citizens who are non-playable characters.

That seems not to give much emphasis to the government/political aspects of the game. Calling El Presidente/the player a dictator doesn't make it a political simulation.

Another Wikipedia article says, "A government simulation or political simulation is a game that attempts to simulate the government and politics of all or part of a nation. These games may include geopolitical situations (involving the formation and execution of foreign policy), the creation of domestic political policies, or the simulation of political campaigns. They differ from the genre of classical wargames due to their discouragement or abstraction of military or action elements." That seems to me to be more descriptive of the core of Tropico than 'city building.' O.K., I recognize that many players find their pleasure in packing a small island with hotels and amassing a huge treasury. I doubt they often play that style game with the 'Political Stability' set to painful.

The Wikipedia article on Tropico introduces it as a "construction and management simulation" despite the fact that the rest of the article goes into great length about the government and political aspects; but says next to nothing about building and city layout. That's in sharp contrast with the article on SimCity (which I think is recognized as a 'city building' simulation): "In SimCity, the player is given the task of founding a city, while maintaining the happiness of the citizens and keeping a stable budget. ... The player must lay down zones, each having a specific kind of building that will be built there. The residential zones, in green, provide housing for Sims; the commercial zones, in blue, provide shops and offices; and the industrial zones, in yellow, provide factories, laboratories and farms. There are three different densities (two for SimCity 2000) in the game: high density for large buildings, mid-density for smaller buildings, and low density for small buildings."

So perhaps you are correct that when Haemimont says "heavy emphasis on city building", it means nothing with regards to the political simulation involved in Tropico 3. I am not so sure. The course is probably set already, anyway.

 

[Coconut Kid]

You all need to read this news release to get a clue about how multi-player will work in Tropico 3. Read Roman patrician/governor to equal Tropican El Presidente. :

http://www.kalypsomedia.com/en/news/index.shtml

KALYPSO MEDIA ARE PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE SEQUEL OF THE BESTSELLING STRATEGY GAME "IMPERIUM ROMANUM"

a comprehensive multiplayer mode = Multiplayer - cooperative and competitive mode !!!

Of course, the Roman has the whole Roman world to work with while El Presidente has only a tin-pot banana republic.
 

[Coconut Kid]

Will all those reading this thread and cheering on T3 please post the basic specs of their PC?

Do you have the latest dual chip CP?

What kind of 'video card' do you have? (actually in the PC and not planned for later installation)

Is your PC so advanced that it has to have its own refrigeration system and not just your cold six-pack sitting on top?

Does your PC get more routine maintenance than your automobile (or the bus you ride)?

Do you secretly believe that the U.S. Defense Department is so jealous of your PC that they have you under surveillance?

Your grade on this quiz will reveal whether your interest in Tropico 3 will make any difference in what games you play.

 

[el_malo]

I read the news release, but still have no clue what this means forTrop3.

When it comes to have a multi-player mode, I can only think of two possibilities...

1.  Players inter-act in governing and developing a single island

2.  Each player is the leader of an island

Can anyone think of any other permutations of what multi-player may mean?

[dierighty]

I only have one CPU. Pentium M Processor 740 1.73 GHZ Front Side Bus 533 MHZ L2 Cache 2MB
Video card on the motherboard-- Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 128MB Dynamicallly shared RAM

Coconut Kid I swear you are a pop top spy!


If you are gonna do a blockbuster game I think its got to be massively multiplayer( tribalwars, everquest, world of warcraft ).

What I think makes this game crazy is that simulates everything based on individual people( tropicans ) whereas simcity is doing the simulation based on equations... so you guys should focus on the tropicans and make them more realistic-- ie hell bent on food and women and make it so you are competing with them to rise to the top. that would add a story line in there because hey some of us like stories. So you have this tropican guy and you move him around until you gain enough power to become DICTATOR! and then you control everyone's job!

[Coconut Kid]

... Video card on the motherboard-- Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 128MB Dynamicallly shared RAM

I asked for that, but I don't have the slightest idea what it means. What I'm getting at is T3 is going to have entirely new graphics in 3D. So it is going to demand 'top-of-the-line' video processing -- what ever that is. That means that some of us are going to have to buy new PCs if we want to play it.

[the multi-player] should focus on the tropicans and make them more realistic-- i.e. hell bent on food and women and make it so you are competing with them to rise to the top. ... So you [each player] have [control] this tropican guy and you move him around until you gain enough power to become DICTATOR! and then you control everyone's job!

First of all, the game has to be gender neutral. As 'Coffeebean' will be quick to tell you, there are female players. They probably won't find hell bent on food & women very interesting. Second, spending so much time on food & women doesn't leave much time for building political power.

Otherwise, that's an interesting idea for multiplayer. Although I don't find 'massively' to be particularly practicable. There have to be a lot of followers to make politics work.

[el_malo]

I must say, I am intrigued by the possibility to inter-act with some of y'all... in a Tropico environment 

[Coconut Kid]

Please ignore this post !

I only have one CPU. Pentium M Processor 740 1.73 GHZ Front Side Bus 533 MHZ L2 Cache 2MB
Video card on the motherboard-- Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 128MB Dynamicallly shared RAM

Coconut Kid I swear you are a pop top spy!


If you are gonna do a blockbuster game I think its got to be massively multiplayer( tribalwars, everquest, world of warcraft ).

What I think makes this game crazy is that simulates everything based on individual people( tropicans ) whereas simcity is doing the simulation based on equations... so you guys should focus on the tropicans and make them more realistic-- ie hell bent on food and women and make it so you are competing with them to rise to the top. that would add a story line in there because hey some of us like stories. So you have this tropican guy and you move him around until you gain enough power to become DICTATOR! and then you control everyone's job!

Edit: FOR D**N IT ALL - MY DIAL UP CONNECTION DIED IN THE MIDDLE OF TRYING TO POST. IT SEEMS THE BOARD HAD A BRAIN FART AT THE SAME TIME KILLING THE POST I WAS REPLYING TO. -- Meanwhile my brain had a gin generated fart and became confused between two threads, I think.

[el_malo]

...and your point?

[Coconut Kid]

how far along are they in development?

If you go by the date of the press release, your guess is as good as mine. I'd guess that the deal doing was done about three months before the mid-November press release. That would have given them enough time to hold all the project definition meetings and make key work assignments. Then they talked to the 'marketeers' and the s**t began to flow. With a projected release date of Augustish 2009, I also guess they are taking a lot of stuff off the shelf. They have publicly committed to rewriting every line of code; the RRT engine will be gone. All the graphics have to be converted to 3D. The social contents have to get a new ESRB rating. So I would agree with you that the critical path has been charted and dates entered on the calendar. There will be no big changes unless the wagon jumps out of the ruts. Our discussions here are just the folks who are trying to follow along in a blinding cloud of dust, wondering where we are going.

some of us are just trying to understand what goes on underneath the hood and not trying to evade copyright protection. So by all means please protect the living poo out of the copyright. Understanding how the game works is not even remotely as simple as trying to evade a copyright.

if they are already making the game I doubt they give two cents what I say. One of the biggest strengths i think is that tropico allowed you to change things and see how they effect individual people, whereas simcity and other simulation games don't have that. So stick with that focus on individual tropicans.

Are you suggesting that Tropico has all along been fairly open to "mods" but the official sites did not post 'bill-boards' about where and how to do it?

War and conquest is something that I don't think was modelled well even in tropico2 i mean when you played tropico2 and a foreign power invaded you, it just showed a screen and determined right then whether you won or lost-- I was like WTF i just spent all this time building this island and i don't get to fight against invasion forces or anything???.

Here I part company with you. Unless you wish to do a simulation of the U.S. invasion of Grenada - Operation Urgent Fury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
as the sole purpose of the game -- or a complete "MOD" to be played over & over because you so much enjoy losing -- WTF is the most appropriate thought for the player who messes about and loses that way. Tropico is not a war game. The army is tolerated only to fight off the Rebels and to maintain order from 'uprisings'.

The greatest game of all time in my humble opinion was X-COM UFO defense so look to that game for inspiration. This turn based strategy is definitely lost in this new age of real time bullgarbage games. So maybe you have real time simulation with individuals on an island maybe getting crazy and starting at like the stone age or something and then letting people attack each other with turn based wars?

Now you have really lost me. "Back to the future" with a turn based game? Perhaps you need to check out paper maps on a table with cardboard counters on them. You seem to be suggesting "Ages in Chaos" on an island which would a year in real time to play out a month in game time. Your inspiration is science fiction and not what Tropico is about. At least I don't wish to have any aliens from outer space on my island.