Tropico 3 announced

[TeamStar]

Can anyone think of any other permutations of what multi-player may mean?

Maybe I'll be able to throw my rebels on your soldiers!

[Coconut Kid]

Please ignore this post !

I only have one CPU. Pentium M Processor 740 1.73 GHZ Front Side Bus 533 MHZ L2 Cache 2MB
Video card on the motherboard-- Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 128MB Dynamicallly shared RAM

Editorial 'snip'

FOR D**N IT ALL - Editorial 'snip'

@ El Malo, that's my point.

[Coconut Kid]

...and your point?

A 'STILL-BIRTH' CREATED BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANY!

[el_malo]

Maybe I'll be able to throw my rebels on your soldiers!

That would probably fall under #1  

Being a collector of boardgames, and books, that deal with political intrigue, rebellion, coups and
other skulduggery... I hope the developer plays Junta  

[el_malo]

A 'STILL-BIRTH' CREATED BY THE TELEPHONE COMPANY!

OK, dial-up can be a real female dog at times 

[Coconut Kid]

I hope everyone reads post #74 !
That seems to be the only place "dierightly"'s post is preserved.

I have no idea how the glitch in my reply posting caused his post to this thread to disappear.

Editorial: I am embarassed. 

Somehow the "bounces" I was getting on my 'dial-up' combined with my gin and confused me. I think the post lives on in another thread. But we don't need to worry about that anymore do we?

 

[Coconut Kid]

That [#74] seems to be the only place "dierightly"'s post is preserved.

Well that's wrong. It's in the other thread "Questions for the developers."

What a total mess. 

[el_malo]

Gremlins have taken control of CT 

[el_malo]

IF Tropico 3 has a multi-player mode, and game-play occurs on a single island, there is a number of player "roles" available...

1.  Government Executive
2.  Government Official/Ministers
3.  Political Faction Leaders
4.  Economic Impresarios (this could easily be divided into several sub-classes)
5.  Military Commanders
6.  Police Commanders
7.  Religious (Archbishop of Tropico ?)

It will be interesting to see, how it actually plays out 

[Jabberdau]

The following games have been made by Haemimont:

Tzar
Celtic Kings
Punic Wars
Imperivm: Great Battles of Rome
Rising Kingdoms
Glory of the Roman Empire
Imperium Romanum

Of these I have only heard of the latest two. As I remember there was a huge number of rome based strategy titles released at one point, Caesar 4, CivCity Rome and Glory of the Roman Empire of which GRE was the least impressive of the bunch.

But if they follow the same road as Tilted Mill did, then we should expect a game based on the same principles as their previous games and I think we will get a game that have much of same elements, but I doubt if they will work in all the details and underlying systems that tropico had, such as individual needs and political motivations each citizen had, based on their previous works. I hope for it, but I dont think they will go that far. GRE and IR are two well-known games though, I previously thought they hadnt made anything. With the optimal conditions I think we could get maybe 60% of what tropico was. unoptimal 25%.

[Anguille]

The following games have been made by Haemimont:

Tzar
Celtic Kings
Punic Wars
Imperivm: Great Battles of Rome
Rising Kingdoms
Glory of the Roman Empire
Imperium Romanum

Of these I have only heard of the latest two. As I remember there was a huge number of rome based strategy titles released at one point, Caesar 4, CivCity Rome and Glory of the Roman Empire of which GRE was the least impressive of the bunch.

But if they follow the same road as Tilted Mill did, then we should expect a game based on the same principles as their previous games and I think we will get a game that have much of same elements, but I doubt if they will work in all the details and underlying systems that tropico had, such as individual needs and political motivations each citizen had, based on their previous works. I hope for it, but I dont think they will go that far. GRE and IR are two well-known games though, I previously thought they hadnt made anything. With the optimal conditions I think we could get maybe 60% of what tropico was. unoptimal 25%.

Hi,

Just want to make a short history on these games:

- I don't know Tsar very well but it's still played a lot.

- Celtic Kings, Punic Wars and Imperium: Great Battles of Rome are RTS based on the roman history. Punic Wars and Imperium GBoR being sequels. The games have had a huge success in Spain, Italy and Latin America (more than 1 millions copies sold) while, despite getting fairly good reviews, they didn't sell as many in the rest of the world.

- Rising Kingdoms is a fantasy RTS in the style of Warcraft3 or the like but has some very nice features of its own.

- Glory of the Roman Empire is a good game even though it isn't as complex as CivCity:Rome nor Caesar IV. The relaxing aspect of the game is the reason why i still play it at night.

- Imperium Romanum is the sequel to GotRE. Many improvements have been made to the game (New buildings, mission tablets etc) but it still feels very much like an improved GotRE.

- From what i've seen so far, Grand Ages: Rome, the third version, is very different to the first two games and is a lot deeper. I'd recommend anyone to try the demo when it's out.

- Tropico 3: it's very hard to judge what they will do with this one as it's the first game they do which is not their own creation from the beginning. I imagine however that they are using the same engine as in Grand Ages: Rome. That should at least give an idea on the graphics. A positive aspect is, as they said it, many employees of Haemimont have been enjoying the game...for the rest, the future will tell.

All in all, the quality of their game has always been very good (i still have all of them on my computer).

Cheers 

Anguille

[TeamStar]

- Glory of the Roman Empire is a good game even though it isn't as complex as CivCity:Rome nor Caesar IV. The relaxing aspect of the game is the reason why i still play it at night.

Well that sounds just like me playing Tropico! 

- Tropico 3: it's very hard to judge what they will do with this one as it's the first game they do which is not their own creation from the beginning. I imagine however that they are using the same engine as in Grand Ages: Rome. That should at least give an idea on the graphics. A positive aspect is, as they said it, many employees of Haemimont have been enjoying the game...for the rest, the future will tell.

Although we appreciate good graphics, it's the individuality of Tropico citizens and their day-to-day life that we are affraid to loose. I never played one of those games mentioned above, does any of them focus on individualism as Tropico does?

[Anguille]

Although we appreciate good graphics, it's the individuality of Tropico citizens and their day-to-day life that we are affraid to loose. I never played one of those games mentioned above, does any of them focus on individualism as Tropico does?

As i said before, my knowledge of Tropico so far is pretty basic (played the tutorial). In  Imperium Romanum (which is more complex than GotRE), each citizens has needs (going to a temple, eating, buying clothes) , earns money by working, gets older and has a family. A citizen who cannot afford eating (because he is unemployed or doesn't earn enough) may become a thief. There is no politics per se but you do have to take care of each individuals needs. From what i've seen, this will be even deeper in Grand Ages: Rome. I don't believe however that, already in GA:Rome, it will be as deep as in Tropico. We'll have to wait for the first screenshots, previews to know how far they will go with Tropico 3. I do hope they will make it very similar to the original but with with 3d of course.

Cheers

[Coconut Kid]

... In  Imperium Romanum (which is more complex than GotRE), each citizens has needs (going to a temple, eating, buying clothes) , earns money by working, gets older and has a family. A citizen who cannot afford eating (because he is unemployed or doesn't earn enough) may become a thief. There is no politics per se but you do have to take care of each individuals needs. ... Cheers

We appreciate your information. May we ask a bit more description of IR? Does each citizen have an avatar which you can watch, and a 'file' which you can inspect to find out the citizen's status? When you say 'citizen' do you include women as well as men; are there slaves or other non-citizens (like tourists in Tropico)?

Some games represent the population as individuals, but abstract needs to generalities. Even Tropico abstracts the individual's personal finance, i.e. employed get a specific pay, but it is not accounted for - but only checked for rent (one-third) and entertainment building fee (whole). Tropico also was unable to cope with accounting for internal food/money accounting.

I think 'TeamStar' has hit upon the critical interest. If T3 does not replicate the individualism of the the game units, it will not meet our basic expectations. Lots of 'eye-candy' graphics drama will not replace the sophisticated simulation of individualized people. Some of us would expect that an upgrade sequel would not only keep all of that feature, but would refine and expand some parts of it.

 

[Coconut Kid]

..., but I doubt if they will work in all the details and underlying systems that tropico had, such as individual needs and political motivations each citizen had, ...

You seem to have been watching the gaming world with some care. Your comments are interesting.

Do you react to TeamStar's comment on the importance of the highly refined individuality of Tropican units as I do?

 

[Anguille]

We appreciate your information. May we ask a bit more description of IR? Does each citizen have an avatar which you can watch, and a 'file' which you can inspect to find out the citizen's status? When you say 'citizen' do you include women as well as men; are there slaves or other non-citizens (like tourists in Tropico)?

In IC, you see each individual in the city (men, women, children, old people). Whenever you select one of them, you have a window with his specific charactistics (name, age, mood etc).  So you may follow the person you selected when it goes to the market, goes to the bath, to the theater, to work etc...Imperium Romanum has slaves as well. Don't think they have names though. No tourists in IR.

Some games represent the population as individuals, but abstract needs to generalities. Even Tropico abstracts the individual's personal finance, i.e. employed get a specific pay, but it is not accounted for - but only checked for rent (one-third) and entertainment building fee (whole). Tropico also was unable to cope with accounting for internal food/money accounting.

You can see the finance by clicking each one's home (so it's what the household gets that is important...one can be unemployed but it doesn't matter if the other one has a good job). People in IR do have to pay for food, clothes and so on. I am not sure what they all have to pay...i just pay attention that the houselholds have enought money  .

But of course, Tropico 3 will not be Imperium Romanum nor Grand Ages: Rome. I believe however, that Haemimont has the tools to make the game you folks want, so make sure to keep posting your suggestions.

Cheers

Anguille

PS: as i said...check the demo of Grand Ages: Rome when it's out (february 2009) to get an idea.

[Coconut Kid]

In IC, you see each individual in the city (men, women, children, old people). Whenever you select one of them, you have a window with his specific charactistics (name, age, mood etc).  So you may follow the person you selected when it goes to the market, goes to the bath, to the theater, to work etc. -- Imperium Romanum has slaves as well. Don't think they have names though. No tourists in IR. ...

  I did not expect tourists in Roman times, although they may have existed. I used Tropican Tourists as examples of 'units' walking about who have radically different characteristics from the "citizen" units.

Thank you for the additional information. You are very kind. 

One would guess from your description that the entire setting is in an urban area so all walking about is quite naturally on streets and roads. In IR are there farms? May the 'units' (people) wander about through untamed fields and forests? 1} "Pathfinding" is a technical program problem in Tropico. Solving it by limiting 'unit' movement to roads is not a happy solution. 2} Undeveloped open space (woodland) is a political issue in Tropico for the Environmentalist Faction.

 

[Anguille]

I did not expect tourists in Roman times, although they may have existed. I used Tropican Tourists as examples of 'units' walking about who have radically different characteristics from the "citizen" units.

Actually i believe there was a lot of tourism back then... ...imagine the citizens of the newly colonized provinces who wanted to visit Rome! And all the rich people who wanted to relax outside of Rome...and so on and so forth...

Thank you for the additional information. You are very kind.  .

You're welcome...

One would guess from your description that the entire setting is in an urban area so all walking about is quite naturally on streets and roads. In IR are there farms? May the 'units' (people) wander about through untamed fields and forests? 1} "Pathfinding" is a technical program problem in Tropico. Solving it by limiting 'unit' movement to roads is not a happy solution. 2} Undeveloped open space (woodland) is a political issue in Tropico for the Environmentalist Faction.

In IR, the maps are very large and you cannot build everywhere either (mountains, lakes etc...) so it's almost impossible to have a city covering an entire map. Roads in IR have more an aesthetic purpose and allow you to plan your city in a better way. People can walk wherever they want (except Mountains, rivers and so on). So no restrictions. In IR you have various farms (pigs, wheat, olives, wine, flax...) as you have to feed your citizens (actually they will buy it  ). Each individual tries to get what he needs by himself (food, work and so forth). One of the most important aspect in IR (i guess it will be like that in GA:Rome as well) is that each building has a specific range. Someone in a house will try to find what he needs within the specific range of his house. Your job is to provide them with whatever they need within that range.

The biggest challenge i see for Haemimont is to include the political considerations but i believe they can do it as the citizens in their engine already have specific needs that affect their mood.

Cheers

[Coconut Kid]

... One of the most important aspect in IR is that each building has a specific range. Someone in a house will try to find what he needs within the specific range of his house. Your job is to provide them with whatever they need within that range.

The biggest challenge i see for Haemimont is to include the political considerations but i believe they can do it as the citizens in their engine already have specific needs that affect their mood.

The range from buildings was also a feature of 1602 A.D & 1503 A.D. etc. series. Tropico works on an opposite principle -- units will go any distance to reach a building which satisfies a need, but in doing so they become economically unproductive (also due to the path-finding problem, they get lost), SO it is the player's burden to place buildings without the rigidity of fixed "service zones" to allow 'units' to satisfy needs in a timely manner.

What this means is that Tropico is a sharp contrast to most of the (pardon me) German city building games. Those games lead to development of geometric patterns of building based on the service zones of buildings because the economics have to trail right along with the building zones. It simply is not possible to develop such a simplistic, preplanned pattern of building in Tropico because the buildings have no fixed service zones and the highly individualized 'units' determine the economic placement of buildings.

The player of Tropico (whether they know it or not) is faced not with routine placement of buildings which can be decoded from a few rounds of game play. Tropico revolves around the 'units' which are highly individualized with the building placement as a second level of strategy.

If T3 goes to a building zone based "city building", it will drop the ball, as they say.

 

[Anguille]

Actually i don't see much of a problem. If the range is extended to the entire map, you get the same as in Tropico. The peoples need is the most important in IR. If people are unhappy, they may start to burn everything down...

[Coconut Kid]

... If the range is extended to the entire map, you get the same as in Tropico. ...

Pardon, but I don't think so. But I can't debate programming.

My issue is the difference between a building based game and a moveable unit/person based game.

I think that you may understand me better if you take the time to go beyond the Tropico Demo.

 

[Anguille]

I think that you may understand me better if you take the time to go beyond the Tropico Demo.

Actually i don't have the demo of Tropico but i own Tropico Gold edition and Tropico 2. My problem is not that i don't want to play them but i don't have time to play them.

Again, i can only stress that IR and GA:Rome are not Tropico 3 and we will have to wait to get some information to get a better idea. As i said...let's give them suggestions (Kalypso and Haemimont forums).

Cheers

[dierighty]

Perhaps a building based game would support multiplayer easier than a unit/person based game because you wouldn't have to make sure all the players connected to the game know where all the units are.

I am trying to think of how multiplayer could work for tropico and ideas are not coming easy for me. One way, would be to have a server and several clients(or players or whatever...). The server hosts a game and in the game there is just one island. When a client joins the server they start out on the island along with all the other clients. Each client gets their own tropican household. They control all the members of the household just like in tropico. So just like in tropico each client can also construct buildings. So what buildings could they construct? Well make it so that each player has a industry/service building that only they can build. So for example all players can build food and housing but player A can only build police stations, player B can only build docks, and player C can only build hospitals.

Now divide the clients into two teams and have the server control a third team. The server's team will have a princess that the teams are trying to capture to win the game.

after typing that I kinda want to play this type of game right now

[TeamStar]

What if, just what if, we all get the chance to vote for El Presidente in a multiplayer Tropico game?!!!?

The player that hosts the game is El Presidente and other players log in as Faction Leaders. Remaining players join as Units and choose a faction to join and an available occupation. Then each Unit works his way up in life, like starting as labourer or farmer, earn enough money to get an education and one day, who knows, be the next El Presidente or just get rich. **I'm just brainstorming, here!**

[Coconut Kid]

I think that you may understand me better if you take the time to go beyond the Tropico Demo.

Actually i don't have the demo of Tropico but ...

I'm sorry. You said tutorial was all you had played so far. Somehow that transmogrified in my brain to "demo." Very careless of me.

I know time can be a problem.