Tropico 3 announced

[Coconut Kid]

  ROFLOL 

City Builder, I read the Tropico thread at citybuildergames.com. ...

I too read the Tropico board there.

http://www.citybuildergames.com/index.php?board=208.0

That's the best laugh I've had in months. I wonder if "City Builder" here is the same person as "City Builder" there.

"CB" there either has a very rare edition of Tropico which has never been mentioned here, or else he can't tell the difference between "Mucho Madness" and "Mucho Macho".

But what really tickled my funny-bone was the discussion about the "Build Order" for Tropico !

If there was ever an illustration of why Tropico is not a city builder game, that is it.

I first thought it would be about a problem with understanding how to place a building and order it to be built - or something to do with the Laborers.

Oh no! From the players of "city builder games" point of view, the whole game can be decoded into the order in which to build the buildings -- that is the Build Order ! Therefore, they are surprised when they go broke shortly after they start. Just make a pretty city and the economy will come trucking along after.

If the developers of T3 and their all new code turn Tropico into that kind of game, we will have been betrayed.

Meanwhile, it's good for a laugh to watch players fixated on buildings trying to cope with Teamsters and Laborers ; elections and uprisings ; coups and Rebels ; etc.

 

[el_malo]

Let's be honest, Take-2 and Pop-Top did a very poor job with the development of Tropico.

When faced with a decision... they always took the wrong one.

To many things seemed beyond their capabilities.

That's why so much "good stuff"... ended on the cutting room floor.

Hopefully, kalypso media and Haemimont Games will give us the game that Tropico should have always been.

[Coconut Kid]

Good, the economic simulation needs to be totally re-worked. It has to many major flaws... that Pop-Top seemed to lack the know-how to fix.

Perhaps the major flaw was the parameter to write the code within the limitations of the PCs marketing said were owned by the group ready to buy the product. That caused food, religion, health care, and education to be left out of the cash flow accounting.

Then there were the "glitches"/errors that crept into the code. I think it is unfair to assign the failure to correct them to "know-how" when it was more likely an issue of money to pay for the correction.

You and TeamStar can be up-beat, but I remain suspicious that T3 will have the economic model of the developer's Roman city-builder formula, rather than T1's complex interplay between 'units' and buildings. I suspect that T3 will end-up having an order in which to construct buildings which will dictate the economy.

Time will tell. 

[TeamStar]

You and TeamStar can be up-beat, but I remain suspicious that T3 will have the economic model of the developer's Roman city-builder formula, rather than T1's complex interplay between 'units' and buildings.

I have that fear too, I'm just hoping the developers won't kill the game, specially if they just want a new theme for a city builder.

I suspect that T3 will end-up having an order in which to construct buildings which will dictate the economy.

Stop it, already! You're gonna make me loose my sleep! 

[el_malo]

Perhaps the major flaw was the parameter to write the code within the limitations of the PCs marketing said were owned by the group ready to buy the product.

The problem was Take-2, in their greed, rushed Tropico to market... before it was ready.

Plus, an arrogant Take-2 always treated the player-base with contempt and disinterest.

[Coconut Kid]

Let's be honest, Take-2 and Pop-Top did a very poor job with the development of Tropico.

When faced with a decision -- they always took the wrong one.

To many things seemed beyond their capabilities.

That's why so much "good stuff" ended on the cutting room floor. ...

Frankly, I think you go too far. PopTop's key people laid out the foundation of the game that you praise. They did so in the context of a "quick & dirty" cash cow. Their main-line was the rail-road simulation. We have no idea of how the resources were distributed. I watched a similar situation with Talonsoft and their Napoleonic & ACW games. No matter how brilliant some of the staff are, the hammer on the whole thing is the cash flow and who controls where it goes.

We have our dreams and when we see echos on the "cutting room floor", we forget that such stuff is there by the dictates of the capitalist cash flow - not stupidity of the workers.

Yes, the development of Tropico was not as polished as was RRT2 & 3. And who led PopTop into the disaster of Fractured Union ? BUT, which game concept lives on?

Let me rephrase that: Which game concept struggles to live on in the jungle of PC games? Tropico ?

Please recall that Breakaway worked with the folks on this board. They did well within the financial limitations imposed -- at least in my opinion. FrogCity also worked with the folks on this board - who had great hopes for T2. The game concept was not a great winner, but they tried. There are parts of T2 such as the editor (I think) that could be useful in T3. Take2 is a conglormerate which picked up pieces of the "dotcom" bust and tries to service the remnants.

Flogging the ghosts doesn't help - well so I think. Trying to find the key to pound the new guys is worth some effort. At least if we have some sort of unified concept of the game.

[Coconut Kid]

The problem was Take-2, in their greed, rushed Tropico to market... before it was ready.

Plus, an arrogant Take-2 always treated the player-base with contempt and disinterest.

Sorry, I still think you are jumping on the wrong people. I looked at the box I bought at WalMart those many years ago. I had to check the fine print on the bottom to find something other than PopTop. After PopTop, the first mention was Gathering of Developers (GOD) Games; then came Take2 which seems to have been a distributor.

Yes, Tropico was rushed to market. But to assign blame now? Was it greed? Who knew it would sell and last for so many years? How many other games were rushed to market -- some even interesting -- with flaws? Greed? That was the PC game market all those years ago, don't you think?

[el_malo]

Trying to find the key to pound the new guys is worth some effort.

CK, it is to early for pounding the new developers.

We do not have enough information, at this point, to be able to do so.

Being antagonistic towards them... will not help improve Trop3.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt, until I have the data to make a final
determination.

I especially need more info on what the multi-player mode will be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take-2 owns the rights to Tropico.

Tjhat puts them in the driver's seat.

I can see where this may require taking Trop3 down a new road.

If by doing so, they develop a good MP, cut-throat, political intrigue game... I will
be happy as a clam.

[el_malo]

This is how the above post should actually appear.

This no edit and preview crap is getting ridiculous.

What it means is that CD does not trust his mods to do their job 

Trying to find the key to pound the new guys is worth some effort.

CK, it is to early for pounding the new developers.

We do not have enough information, at this point, to be able to do so.

Being antagonistic towards them... will not help improve Trop3.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt, until I have the data to make a final
determination.

I especially need more info on what the multi-player mode will be.

I can see where this may require taking Trop3 down a new road.

If by doing so, they develop a good MP, cut-throat, political intrigue game... I will
be happy as a clam.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take-2 owns the rights to Tropico.

Tjhat puts them in the driver's seat.

[Coconut Kid]

Trying to find the key to pound the new guys is worth some effort.

CK, it is to early for pounding the new developers. ...
Take-2 owns the rights to Tropico. That puts them in the driver's seat.

O.K. "pounding" is the wrong term. It does imply antagonistic which is not my intent at all. I wish to inform them; to convince them that Tropico is NOT a city builder game. It is a political intrigue game -- multi-player or not -- which fills a place currently not satisfied in the PC game market (I think).

BUT if we just sit back and wait for data, our view point may be lost before we know what is happening. BTW -- if T3 relies on multi-player, and may not make any sense for a single player against the population of units -- I'll check out right now. The technology of MP has gone past my level of interest, and (apologies to el_malo) I have no friends or potential friends with whom to play.
I do not believe that Take2 is the owner. Unless I am completely out of my mind, I believe that Kalypso has purchased all the rights to Tropico. At least that idea covers the development of new applications. I'm vague on who supports the previous published versions. Edit: See later correction; Take2 still owns T1 and T2.

[el_malo]

Take-2 owns the rights to Tropico.

Tjhat puts them in the driver's seat.

The above quote was a response to the below quote.

Sorry, I still think you are jumping on the wrong people. I looked at the box I bought at WalMart those many years ago. I had to check the fine print on the bottom to find something other than PopTop. After PopTop, the first mention was Gathering of Developers (GOD) Games; then came Take2 which seems to have been a distributor.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The technology of MP has gone past my level of interest, and (apologies to el_malo) I have no friends or potential friends with whom to play.

You were one of the people that I was looking forward to playing MP with 

I was hoping that we could prove that age and treachery will defeat youth and ability... any day 

[Coconut Kid]

... I was hoping that we could prove that age and treachery will defeat youth and ability -- any day

That's all fine. But if it were you vs me only? Senility backed by the army vs the world as in that African country? Pardon, but senility vs paralysis ?? Perhaps the game could be more lively than the real world.

One would think the army would see the collapse. Weird.

[Coffeebean]

This no edit and preview crap is getting ridiculous.

What it means is that CD does not trust his mods to do their job  Roll Eyes

Not true, the edit facility was removed due to it being abused.

Another poster recently asked for it to be reinstated and a message has been left for CD passing on this request.

What it means is that CD doesn't pop in very often.

There's no need to get all uppity about it. 

[el_malo]

Not true, the edit facility was removed due to it being abused.

So,you are saying that you approve of punishing everyone for the actions of one member, or a few, that abused
the edit function 

That does not sound like the Bean that I've known for years 

Punish those that abuse their privileges and let the rest of us get on with our business.

[TeamStar]

About the edit function, was this a mods unanimous decision or did CD decided it by himself?

What it means is that CD doesn't pop in very often.

This means that he doesn't pop at all, the request was made weeks ago...

[Coffeebean]

*knocks Teamstar's and el's heads together with handbag* 

So,you are saying that you approve of punishing everyone for the actions of one member, or a few, that abused
the edit function  Roll Eyes

Yes!  - Actually I do kind of. Collective responsibility i.e. your actions may have consequences on others. Community etc.

That does not sound like the Bean that I've known for years  Wink

Beh!

Punish those that abuse their privileges and let the rest of us get on with our business.

Type more carefully if it bothers you or increase your post count and explain what you really meant in a second post. 

About the edit function, was this a mods unanimous decision or did CD decided it by himself?

Really can't remember, but if I was a betting woman I'd say unanimous. It's how the Cafe has been traditionally moderated, which is why some decisions have taken longer than some would have liked.

I am sorry that members are annoyed by this.

Look on the bright side in these days of financial doom.

Tropico 3 is on the horizon AND we have a place where we can post all about IT and anything else (within reason) that we care to discuss. It's all free and (the few remaining) mods are doing their best (within reason).

[el_malo]

Type more carefully if it bothers you

I would love to, but my hands are so crippled by arthritis... it is a miracle that I can
post at all.

Ever think that this is why I attempt to keep my posts as short as possible.

But, it is all OK... the pain is good for me.

[TeamStar]

Well, not for me.
This must be the only social place in the digital world without an edit function. It also happens to be one of those places I love the most. So I'll keep nagging the mods until we get it back. This subject is going very OT, so will check the right place to do it (the nagging).

[Coconut Kid]

From Kalypso Media:

"Kalypso is owning the license for Tropico 3 - Take2 is still the owner and publisher of part one and two."

 

[Coconut Kid]

Not true, the edit facility was removed due to it (sic) [its] being abused. ...

And now it has been restored! So we can return to a love & kisses -- well, friendly -- relationship with our moderators.

 

And with T3's multi-player mode, we can have a virtual meeting with them on a delightful tropical island.

 

And by the way, look the hell out for CB's handbag! It smarts more than Eddie's paddle. How else do you think she can play without a Jail?