Questions - Tropico 3

[Coconut Kid]

There is a very small chance that we MAY be able to submit a few (8 - 10) questions to the developers at Haemimont Games if approved by Kalypso.

First, you have to allow me to be the filter of the sensibleness of the questions and the limitation of numbers.

Second, you have to recognize that this would be a great privilege because the developers do not have time to fritter away on minor points. Naturally their answers will be published and generally known on the internet. Therefore they will be commitments for a direction to be carried out in the development. To do this so early in the development cycle of a major rewriting of the "game engine" would be a surprising recognition of the Cafe "hard core."

So, if you wish to participate -- post your thoughtful questions here, the collection point.

Edit: actually this got done on the Kalypso Media forum by a representative of the publisher; and in two languages. Sorry about that folks; my plan came to naught.

 

[el_malo]

There is a very small chance that we MAY be able to submit a few (8 - 10) questions to the developers at Haemimont Games if approved by Kalypso.

CK, what are you basing this on?

[Coconut Kid]

Read your PM. [wherein I blab about a confidential E-mail I received]

 

[el_malo]

Thanks 

[el_malo]

Do you have plans to avoid a major mistake made by Pop-Top and Take-Two... allowing players to modd Trop 3, not just create scenarios.

Paradox Interactive (Europa Universalis & Heartsof Iron) has been very successful in keeping "old" games fresh by permitting the player-base to do so.

Many of the modds are later incorporated into updated versions of their games.

[el_malo]

Do you have plans to avoid a major mistake made by Pop-Top and Take-Two... allowing players to modd Trop 3, not just create scenarios.

Should have read...

Do you have plans to avoid a major mistake made by Pop-Top and Take-Two... not allowing players to modd Trop 3, but only create scenarios.

Hopefully, we can get past this silly and petty "no-edit" rule... soon 

[Coffeebean]

Tropico 3, Tropico 3, w00t, w00t and w00t!

I want more visible tarantulas - am I in the right thread?

Read your PM.

I wanna know as well! >stamps foot smiley<

[Coconut Kid]

I want more visible tarantulas - >stamps foot smiley<

You have your very own PM now. When you read it, the new Tropico visible tarantulas will flood into your computer. They will escape into your house when you shut the computer down. You asked for them. BTW watch the fizzies.

 

[Coconut Kid]

Tarantula Notice:

I have a highly secret encripted communications link to Bulgaria. Not only are the messages encripted, but they are carried by native Tropican tarantulas! None of this foolish internet business for Tropican Tarantulas.

Both el_malo and Coffeebean already live in houses swarming with these native 'Tropicans' whom they love.

If you have a serious question, ignore my line of communication and ask it.

 

[Coffeebean]

>Bean watches the Tarantulas and the fizzies very, very carefully, whilst she tries to think of serious questions<

[Coconut Kid]

Stupid content deleted. It had nothing to do with the game or topic of the thread.

 

[Coconut Kid]

Do you have plans to avoid a major mistake made by Pop-Top and Take-Two, [that is] not allowing players to modd Trop 3, but only create scenarios.

Hopefully, we can get past this silly and petty "no-edit" rule ~ soon.

el_malo,
I'm sorry to be left behind the door when they handed out smarts, so I have to ask for some education on all this "mods" business. The Haemimont folks might instantly understand, but as 'gatekeeper' I have to understand too. (so sad)

I am coming from the point of knowing that games have a core program (sometimes called the 'engine') which drives the action and is the thing that they copyright or whatever. It's their money maker. Surrounding it are a bunch of other 'components' which may be more or less visible to users. In the pre-history of dirt where I learned about cards, etc., they were called tables and the core program called on them for information. These components may be easy to see and change; or they may be obscured and hard to change. In the old Tallonsoft Napoleonic wargames, users discovered all sorts of ways to change most of the 'table files.' It took a bit of knowledge because the publisher did not pass out a freeby 'editing routine' for all those files.

While you castigate PopTop, etc. for not allowing mods, it is clearly evident that the building.dat and unit.dat files are changeable with a bit of knowledge by means of a hex editor. Changing one or both of these files make the game into something entirely new. O.K., we don't have the spread sheet for the Unit.dat file that we do for buildings. Is your desire to have these and other component files publilshed in some sort of "open" form so they can be changed without using a hex editor? Of course, I will instantly be proved wrong - but I suspect that would take some space on the hard-drive. Today that is not a problem, but it was when Tropico was first published. Or is the issue changing the "core" program?

As I say, I just need to understand all this "modding" stuff better. Thanks el_malo for your help.

 

[Coconut Kid]

I guess I am not being understood. Here is a rule from the Haemimont forum:

"The Internet outside of this Forum is a treasury for copyright protection offences. This means that any instructions on how to crack/download games, movies or music, links to any Warez or any other illegal sites, files and so on is strictly prohibited. Threads/Posts about Warez, Cracks or Illegal copies are also included in this rule, no matter how innocent they may seem."

I need to understand how the "mods" you are asking about relate to "cracks"? I do not wish to be innocently asking how wide the developers are going to be leaving the door open to cracks of stuff under copyright protection.

I'm sorry to be so stupid. 

[el_malo]

My experiences with game-modding is with Paradox Interactive and their game, Hearts of Iron.

Players are permitted to change/adapt/replace/add/etc. coding for the game.

I actually know very little about the process.

I know where to go to find the downloads... on Paradox Interactive's official site.

PI supports its player-base in improving its games.

[dierighty]

how far along are they in development?

some of us are just trying to understand what goes on underneath the hood and not trying to evade copyright protection. So by all means please protect the living poo out of the copyright. Understanding how the game works is not even remotely as simply as trying to evade a copyright.

if they are already making the game I doubt they give two cents what I say. One of the biggest strengths i think is that tropico allowed you to change things and see how they effect individual people, whereas simcity and other simulation games don't have that. So stick with that focus on individual tropicans. War and conquest is something that I don't think was modelled well even in tropico2 i mean when you played tropico2 and a foreign power invaded you, it just showed a screen and determined right then whether you won or lost-- I was like WTF i just spent all this time building this island and i don't get to fight against invasion forces or anything???.

The greatest game of all time in my humble opinion was X-COM UFO defense so look to that game for inspiration. This turn based strategy is definitely lost in this new age of real time bullgarbage games. So maybe you have real time simulation with individuals on an island maybe getting crazy and starting at like the stone age or something and then letting people attack each other with turn based wars?

[Coconut Kid]

My experiences with game-modding is with Paradox Interactive and their game, Hearts of Iron. ...

Thanks. That helps me understand.

I did not dip into the official site. I did find a "fan" site - DMP (Design Modification Project) which is a German/English site with all sorts of downloads. It looked like a hot-bed of code readers and writers. That is something I am not; I nibble around the edges at the pace of a sloth.

I opine that there are two key aspects about the issue you raise. First of all, the publisher has to have a deep interest in game with a commitment to publish 'several' sequels if the market is evident. Probably the publisher should not be publishing dozens of flash-in-the-pan games. Secondly, the game should attract a fair number of players who are at least semi-skilled in coding and who are deeply interested in the subject matter of the game. I fear that Tropico was short-changed on both counts, but by inattention rather than opposition.

Tropico started as a quick & dirty money making "quickey" project to fill-in time gaps in the production of the series of Rail Road Tycoon games. A couple of guys did some pretty inspired basic layout work, but you know how a lot of it was left hanging when it was rushed to publication. As for attracting technocrats, let's face it -- political simulatiors (especially on a tropical island) don't have the drawing power of WWII (just as WWI doesn't have the drawing power of WWII) and the surface appearance of the game (and as most players use it) is a city builder. Some skilled guys and gals drifted in and out and left some interesting "mod" tracks; some of the best scriptors were skilled enough to have developed 'mods' if they had hung about longer. But very few of them committed much more than a year -- except Cafe Dave who at least pays the rent here. Also, the technology flashed on past what Tropico uses. Weeds has commented on that.

So I think the issues you raise for the new publisher and the new developer are: 1} Do you have a long term commitment to Tropico as a political simulation (rather than 'eye-candy' city builder) to be supported as it gains a market share - including sequels? and 2} Will you talk to adult (acting) fans as adults rather than as the pimply-faced sub-teens who buy the other stuff you sell? Or do we have to learn German in order to ask that question without a dozen emoticons?

I hope you will give me your reactions to all that. I've said it in a cooperative spirit I hope.

 

[el_malo]

Secondly, the game should attract a fair number of players who are at least semi-skilled in coding and who are deeply interested in the subject matter of the game. I fear that Tropico was short-changed on both counts, but by inattention rather than opposition.

I disagree with your second opinion.

Tropico, and Cafe Tropico, has attracted a high number of players, that would have been
imminently qualified to be "modders."

If Take-2 & Pop-top had made the source codes available, and provided resources to support
modders, this discussion would not be occurring.

As I have said, my perspective on modding, is tempered by my association with Paradox.

Their games are about more than greed and flash.

[Coconut Kid]

Secondly, the game should attract a fair number of players who are at least semi-skilled in coding and who are deeply interested in the subject matter of the game. I fear that Tropico was short-changed on both counts, but by inattention rather than opposition.

I disagree with your second opinion.

Tropico, and Cafe Tropico, has attracted a high number of players, that would have been imminently qualified to be "modders."

If Take-2 & Pop-top had made the source codes available, and provided resources to support modders, this discussion would not be occurring. ...

O.K. I can follow that. I, myself, would be highly qualified to be a "modder." And that's not just on this game. But the darn publishers don't include in the users manual the program location and 'decoded' lists of the stuff that can be changed without screwing around with their intellectual property.

With that kind of information published, what fantastic strategy guides could be written in the first few days after publication. Then again maybe game play should be about being fully informed about how the opposition will react. Or perhaps which branch of the technology tree will work best for a particular goal.

But in addition to publishing an almost completed decoded and outlined version of the game program, what additional resources do you fault the publishers & developers for NOT providing? A discussion board where every new player could ask, "which line in the code do I have to change to speed-up the Larborers?"?

Of course the answer to that is not really simple.

As you say, you view "modding" from the perspective of a WWII game. I went deeply into a paper WWII game - EUROPA. There was a lot of 'modding' and it impacted on the game. But eventually it peaked. Eventually games and simulations can stand only so much 'modding'. Then they become fantasy. Tropico did not include drugs; but I am surprised that someone did not script a "Whore-House Island" scenario for a tourist industry capitalist dictator -- like the one added by PI - Travel Agent who came in by Hotel Corporate Buyout. The "Spring Breakers" would crowd the place. What "mods" do you need to do that?

[Coconut Kid]

how far along are they in development?

If you go by the date of the press release, your guess is as good as mine. I'd guess that the deal doing was done about three months before the mid-November press release. That would have given them enough time to hold all the project definition meetings and make key work assignments. Then they talked to the 'marketeers' and the s**t began to flow. With a projected release date of Augustish 2009, I also guess they are taking a lot of stuff off the shelf. They have publicly committed to rewriting every line of code; the RRT engine will be gone. All the graphics have to be converted to 3D. The social contents have to get a new ESRB rating. So I would agree with you that the critical path has been charted and dates entered on the calendar. There will be no big changes unless the wagon jumps out of the ruts. Our discussions here are just the folks who are trying to follow along in a blinding cloud of dust, wondering where we are going.

some of us are just trying to understand what goes on underneath the hood and not trying to evade copyright protection. So by all means please protect the living poo out of the copyright. Understanding how the game works is not even remotely as simple as trying to evade a copyright.

if they are already making the game I doubt they give two cents what I say. One of the biggest strengths i think is that tropico allowed you to change things and see how they effect individual people, whereas simcity and other simulation games don't have that. So stick with that focus on individual tropicans.

Are you suggesting that Tropico has all along been fairly open to "mods" but the official sites did not post 'bill-boards' about where and how to do it?

War and conquest is something that I don't think was modelled well even in tropico2 i mean when you played tropico2 and a foreign power invaded you, it just showed a screen and determined right then whether you won or lost-- I was like WTF i just spent all this time building this island and i don't get to fight against invasion forces or anything???.

Here I part company with you. Unless you wish to do a simulation of the U.S. invasion of Grenada - Operation Urgent Fury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
as the sole purpose of the game -- or a complete "MOD" to be played over & over because you so much enjoy losing -- WTF is the most appropriate thought for the player who messes about and loses that way. Tropico is not a war game. The army is tolerated only to fight off the Rebels and to maintain order from 'uprisings'.

The greatest game of all time in my humble opinion was X-COM UFO defense so look to that game for inspiration. This turn based strategy is definitely lost in this new age of real time bullgarbage games. So maybe you have real time simulation with individuals on an island maybe getting crazy and starting at like the stone age or something and then letting people attack each other with turn based wars?

Now you have really lost me. "Back to the future" with a turn based game? Perhaps you need to check out paper maps on a table with cardboard counters on them. You seem to be suggesting "Ages in Chaos" on an island which would a year in real time to play out a month in game time. Your inspiration is science fiction and not what Tropico is about. At least I don't wish to have any aliens from outer space on my island.

 

[Mobutu Sese Seko]

Will Tropico 3 focus more on policies than city building? City building can be fun, but a more automated economy would be nice, so we didn't always have to run what is essentially a communist centrally planned economy.

[Gen Gizmo]

Developers should keep 95% of the tropico one features, and just improve on rotating objects like marinas, and buildings.  Modification of the game is what makes a game worth buying, and there are ways to to design a game does not violate copyright protects or privacy.  My new feature list a ability to design statutes of el Presdente and add hardware store as building features that would reduce between 20% to 80% damage during hurriance and reduces construction costs by 20%.  Still, I do not want tropico to have the feel of simcity period.  When tropico 3 comes out it should feel like updated version of tropico with quirks worked out.

[Coconut Kid]

>Bean watches the Tarantulas and the fizzies very, very carefully, whilst she tries to think of serious questions<

My word! Serious thought could ruin the third run at Tropico, don't you know?

Just look at the level of new posts here.

Tropico Forever !

[el_malo]

Based upon R-Y's great synopsis of the German article, my immediate questions...

1.  Will there still be a Rebel faction?

2.  What is this "Natives" crap?

3.  What buildings are being eliminated?



 

[Coconut Kid]

There is a very small chance that we MAY be able to submit a few (8 - 10) questions to the developers at Haemimont Games if approved by Kalypso. ...

We now know that this chance has gone by. Whether I blew it or not makes no difference. What became evident is that the publisher/developer delivered an exclusive article to a German language magazine and followed up with commentary on that magazine's discussion board.

There was no mirror release in English from Kalypso's office in GB.

Although negociations may be in progress, Kakypso has not announced that it is looking at U.S. agents to distribute T3. One has to doubt it has any intent to market in the U.S. Have they marketed any other game in the U.S.?

[Coconut Kid]

Just in case the developers ever look at this thread --

We have been told on the publisher's discussion board that there is no need to worry about the "bugs" we have laboriously discovered. That is because there is a complete rework of the game engine going on.

We understand that in connection with the graphics.

We would like some assurance in connection with other aspects of the game, such as the "bookkeeping". Please check this thread:
http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=7824.msg186503#msg186503

It has to do with the doubling of the 'Hotel Revenue' which makes the tourist industry too easy to operate.

I can't say much more.