Tropico Multi-Player means? [answered]

[Coconut Kid]

T1 was developed without a multi-player mode because the player was "god like" in control of what was happening.

True that the units/people were not so directable. However, everything else (almost) was.

Either you are a dictator - albeit subject to:

• Elections, if you permit them
• Army 'Coups'
• Uprisings
• Economic collapse (bankrupcy)
• Foreign invasion -

-
in control of everything or you are not.

A lot of that decision had to do with the code capacity of the PCs of the release date. That coding situation and the technology of internet connections has changed.

What is your speculation on what "multi-player" in T3 will/should be?

[el_malo]

This is a biggie for me.

As a collector of political intrigue board and card games... I'm very
interested in what Haemimont Games develops.

 

[TeamStar]

Maybe playing some of Haemimont Games will give us some clues of how multi-player could work on T3.

[Coconut Kid]

This is a biggie for me.

As a collector of political intrigue board and card games... I'm very interested in what Haemimont Games develops.

I think we can discard the "massively multi-player" mode with the game mounted on a bank of servers paid for by 'whomever' with thousands of players connecting through their browsers.

If the game is PC oriented and the multi-player mode is based on connections either through the internet or through a local net, there would likely be a limit on the number of players.

Not only that, but what would be their role in the game? It surely would not be just watching and chatting.

Based on your extensive collection of "paper" games, what do you speculate would be the most compatable situation for this game?

Most "El Presidentes" are not so independent as would fit with "god" games. The first level of 'intrigue' is the group of supporters. This is where the background plays a tune. Either the "Junta" (if that is what it is) is idiologically fully supportative and members have individual power to take action in a ministry or ? On an island (small by definition), probably a four member junta (including El Presidente) would be the maximum. It still has to be dominated by the guy/gal who starts the game.

A second level could be the remnants of the other governmental institutions when El Presidente is "elected". A 'legislature' of the leaders of the two most numerous factions and a 'judge' of the court system. They would have to approve El Presidente's use of Edicts (divided between the Legislature & the Court) and selected building construction and option settings.

A third level could be the Ambassadors of the U.S. , the U.S.S.R. , and The Republic of Limeys (the nearest island just granted independent British Dominion status) who would have influence on immigration and export prices. This is the option for "installed" El Presidentes.

That's "off the top of my head" stuff. You know more good stuff.

I think there is a limit though. Somehow the 'host' and three others seems reasonable.

At least it's a thought that may be different from the Roman Empire, eh?

[el_malo]

To be honest, when it comes to Trop3... I have absolutely no idea, as to what the
developer is planning.

In the "paper world" of political intrigue, an MP game, usually has 7 players as the ideal.

The players frequently control some type of armed force.

1.  Prez --- Palace Guard
2.  Army Gen(s) --- army units (infantry/tanks)
3.  Air Gen --- air units (air-strikes/paras)
4.  Admiral --- naval units (naval gunfire/marines)
5.  Police Gen(s) --- police units (cops/swat/armored cars)
6.  Political Leaders --- party militias

Commonly, there is a budget, usually secret, that El Prez has to share with the other
players.

This is what causes most of the coups.

How this would work with Trop3... I'm clueless 

[Coconut Kid]

... In the "paper world" of political intrigue, a MP game, usually has 7 players as the ideal.
The players frequently control some type of armed force. [Regular Forces & Party Militias]
 ...
Commonly, there is a budget, usually secret, that El Prez has to share with the other players. This is what causes most of the coups.
 ...

Thanks for those insights. I too have no clue how to translate that to current multiplayer programs. The old games were "you go; I  go" turn-based with a file circulating via Email. I doubt there is any idea of returning to that system.

The technology of hooking-up a group of players in a temporary "network" is not all that difficult, but it is another skill for all players to learn. It is my understanding that it is not uncommon for a group of players to meet at a place (as do board game players) bringing along their PCs or Laptops and cableing-up their game. But I don't think we need to speculate on the technology part of multi-player.

The speculation I am interested in, is how the story line of the game is to be devised to fit the Tropican World. It's a small island which seems to me unable to support the full compliment of military forces. The idea of party militias really scares me because with army, rebels, police, coast guard/navy, air force, and possibly six faction militias -- we are on the way to a simple 'shoot-em-up'! Meanwhile, who is building buildings and the economy?

Hidden Agenda provides an outline of a cast of characters on which to base the roles of the multi-players. 'Political Intrigue' implies something far less than formal armed forces in battle as the key activity.

Then there is the problem of how to balance the game between single player and multi-players. If it were to work only for multi-players, you would rush to buy it and I would not touch it at all.

So, what is (or should be) the story line for Tropico Multi-Player ??

[Coconut Kid]

... So, what is (or should be) the story line for Tropico Multi-Player ??

Here is an example of the "story line" for the original Tropico:

http://tropico.strategyplanet.gamespy.com/cafe/index.php?topic=10840.0

In Tropico, players take on the role of a new dictator of a remote Caribbean island and then they must build a path of progress for a nation. Unfortunately, it won't be easy. The nation is mired in poverty, civil unrest and infighting. Based on their economic vision, gamers then must build hotels, mines, factories, and more than 80 other structures. Diplomacy and politics factor heavily in the game, as players must pacify various internal factions and external threats. If the island's growth is well planned, the player will have plenty of money to buy the peoples' favor and ensure prosperity. If growth is poorly planned and the economy falters, the population may revolt, forcing the player to declare martial law, allowing your dictatorial self to emerge.

Now, what kind of story would you write for a "multi-player" Tropico?

[el_malo]

- MP: you should be somehow able to visit the islands of other players, helping them with solving problems or trading ressources. The article talks of some kind of unknown online-service involved [I hope that doesn't mean your are forced to register there, keep internet connection during play or similar things!]

Well, we have some idea of where the MP is headed.

Apparently, it will be some type of interface... that permits a mini-UN of dictators.

It can easily understand, why the developer is taking this approach 

Advice, trading, gambling in other island casinos (?), a guest in another dictator's
palace (?)... this has possibilities

EDIT:  Player autonomy is maintained in managing and developing each "hell-hole"   

[Valhalla185]

It will be interesting to see... I was thinking at first. You know perhaps be one of those games that focuses on the citybuilding part(Its much more to Tropico, but its for sake of pinning it with a simple word). With maybe drumming up an army and invading one anothers islands to kill the other players... But more and more it sounds like a co-op "citybuilder". Though I suppose it would be possible to have teams and then both ideas would work.

Attacking a communist island would invoke the wrath of the Soviets. Attacking a capitalist one would anger the Americans. If you attacked lets say... Cuba which is good allies with the USSR but where an ally of the USA you could in theory see AI controlled Soviet/American Forces(fighting along side or against the human players/i.e. not human controlled) or be given guns, tanks, and so forth, things that we islanders know little about making but a lot about using, as you slug it out with other players. Perhaps praising or bribing your enemies supporting superpower with cigars so they will stay at home and allow you overrun the dogs with little to worry about but what the other banana republics might throw at you. Forcing the players to stay on the ball and be politically active even in an all out war where most games would put that and the economic aspect on the back burner... Giving a edge weapons wise to people who negotiate tanks, helicopters, and such or even a full blown invasion. Or saving someones hide by turning your enemies favorable superpower more in your favor and cut off the aid all together!

I can hear bombs going off and people scrambling threw the jungle, Vietnam style, already. Then you could have the option just to help one another and build and oppress your people as we've grown accustom to as your fighting or just be peaceful and build and torture to your hearts content. And that would give a lot of possibilities to a campaign(no doubt that will be open-ended).

That's just my two cents however. What do I know Im just a cigar smoking, banana eating, alcoholic from a Caribbean slum. Well in game at least.

[loverevolutionary]

Well, the UN of El Presidentes seems the most plausible route. Trading would be easy. People could specialize and trade raw materials. Perhaps you could dump your dissidents, not on the US, but on another island? I would love to be able to visit other people's islands as a tourist... or maybe a spy! If avatars could walk around each other's islands and chat, that would be cool enough, but imagine being able to bribe their citizens? Or steal stuff? Minigame idea: cattle rustlers: yee-haw, git on tha boat, lil doggies! Maybe Sim City 4 style 'multiplayer' where people can each build an island in a shared Caribbean? Hehe, what if the Caribbean Average Pay was actually the average for everyone in a given instance of the Caribbean? I doubt there will be any RTS combat, taking over each other's islands and whatnot, that seems out of place. My guesses for Tropico 3 multiplayer are, in descending order of likelihood: virtual tourism, trading, a loosely shared socio-political-economic framework, and maybe intrigue.

Haven't posted in a while, but I heard about Tropico 3 and dusted off my old Mucho Macho CDs, which reminded me of this place and I wondered if people here had heard more about the new edition. What a classic the original is, I hope the new guys do it justice.

[Coconut Kid]

... Haven't posted in a while, ...

September 16, 2003, to be exact.

Welcome Back !

[Coconut Kid]

This is a biggie for me.  As a collector of political intrigue board and card games ...

I took out my old Settlers IV Manual, and I see six modes of play. Remember that the game involves owning territory.

>> Conflict (single- or multi- )
"The players have only got one thing on their minds: victory! It is possible to square up against each other individually or in teams." The single-player faces AI (computer controlled) opponent(s).

>> Ranking List Games (multi- )
"Play for ranking list points on the [publisher's registry]. Ranking list games are only available on specific maps. The [registry] has ranking lists for clans as well as for individual players."

>> Cooperation (multi- )
"All human players try to achieve a pre-determined goal together against a computer-controlled opponent."

>> Economic (multi- )
"Settle competitively against other players within a certain time limit. The army's only function in this game is to protect your own settlement, as its military strength outside your own territory is a lot lower than normal. The winner is the player or team that has produced the most units in at least four out of a total seven goods categories."

>> Settlefest (multi- )
"Settle away on a single-player map where there are no human enemies (you may have a computer to contend with, though). Your human opponents are also building up a settlement on an identical map. The winner is either the first player to achieve the game's objectives (these vary from map to map), or is decided after a pre-determined time limit has elapsed."

>> Free Settle (single- )
"There is no given goal and there are no opponent. The only thing to worry about in this mode of play is how to build up a really good settlement." Sandbox?

There were several methods of connection for multi-players.

FWIW   

Hummm? Reviewing that, there seems to be very little political intrigue there.   

[el_malo]

From the little we know, the MP in Trop3 will have little impact on individual players.

IMO, there is no need to even include it in the new game.

I had hope for more than a glorified chat-room and trading between players.

[Coconut Kid]

To be honest, when it comes to Trop3 -- I have absolutely no idea as to what the developer is planning. ...

Let's take a really wild guess: it involves a "retread" (code word that no one under 45 understands) of what was used in the last couple of big sellers among the German published games.

However, it shall not involve political intrigue based on the population units.

ROTFLOL.

If it were to, only one in a hundred players could understand it. We want Michelangelo to sculpt with 'Legos'.

 

[el_malo]

it involves a "retread" (code word that no one under 45 understands) of what was used in the last couple of big sellers

Something that Haemimont Games has a history of doing... poorly.

Their games are all based upon concepts stolen from other games and then executed so bad... that no one buys them.

The series of Rome games that they put out are an example.

Don't expect anything new out of these losers.

From things I have read at other sites, they are the laughing-stock of the Euro PC gaming world.

[Coconut Kid]

... I had hope for more than a glorified chat-room and trading between players.

Yep! Political Intrigue takes some original thought to fit into a computer world framework. You don't get that when you have habituated all your market (buyers) to expect nothing more than pretty pictures.

I thought that a minimum would have been to set up a Junta of three to five players with the "dictator" being the 'host' and carrying the 'respect' of the Tropican citizens. Each player would have an allocation of authority and money to act independently. El Presidente would not necessarily control both or either of the army and police. The players would have to vote on certain actions.

The over-arching goal would not be to back-stab each other, but to stay ahead of the population and keep the "figure-head" in office through the thick and thin of each other's blunders.

But setting up the framework would be tough. Eh?

[el_malo]

Political Intrigue in a city-builder... what is the need

I suspect that coding even minimal political intrigue is beyond their abilities, or they have not found the right game to rip-off, yet

I wish we lived in the same town, CK, but Colorado gets to cold for me.

My old bones need the warmth of the sun

Then, we could satisfy our shared interest in political intrigue with board/card games that deal with the topic.

The paper side of gaming is still light-years ahead of PC gaming... in regards to political intrigue.

[Coconut Kid]

This is a biggie for me.
As a collector of political intrigue board and card games, I'm very interested in what Haemimont Games develops.

Well there is a small bit of news, not all happy.

Direct multiplayer is not in the plans; it would not make sense. Tropico 3 is not RTS. We can not predict the classical multiplayer because of the player's control of the direction of his choice of competitive (tyrant) vs co-operative (paternal) style of play.

Of course, that is not a "direct" quote, but rather a paraphrase from the last publication release from Kalipso.

It does seem to indicate that whatever partial multi-player may come with T3, it certainly will not be about combat over a Caribbean island.

It seems to say that unless all "characters" in a multi-player game start off equally in the "game world" -- there is no basis for the interaction.

Besides that, the code is out-of-sight in complexitity.

Or perhaps there is something else that I don't understand.

 

[Coconut Kid]

Mechanical Translation:

Your successful stand works a graduation from the story mode and the endless game, you then have further possibilities open to let you further rule your dearly won El Presidente, for Publisher Kalypso at an extensive Online part.

Over a not more closely defined Online service, it should be possible in Tropico 3 to visit with your avatar, islands of another player. On the strange island, you may stroll around then, may explore the area and chat with the dictator there. This option has practical utility only if you help one other player on his island in a problem or if you in some other way lift someone when they are down.

Such relations help to act in the later game course, resources of your own island over the Internet with the players in all world, would be were it against money or in the exchange against just necessary.

Kalypso thinks about even that to introduce a type island advice, that selected players preside. That everything is naturally not necessary in order to conclude the game, but without question a community forming measure that can carry thoroughly fruits. 

 

[Servant Corps]

I'm thinking that this can very well turn into Animal Crossing with guns.

I approve.

[jason_bourne]

Why is everyone here so pessimistic about Haemimont Games ?

I hope the best from them.

[Coconut Kid]

Why is everyone here so pessimistic about Haemimont Games ? I hope the best from them.

I'm not sure you really wish to have an answer to that.

It is because some of us have been around here for a long time. The first attraction was Railroad Tycoon in the hands of PopTop. Some hopes came true with that, so people thought that PopTop was a good thing to hope about.

Then PopTop produced Tropico and the railroad fans and lots of others thought here is an outfit that we can pin our hopes on.

We were really hopeful when "Breakaway" was working on the Tropico expansion while "PopTop" was working on the next edition of Railroad Tycoon.

Paradise Island was nice, but buggy. The money for fixes ran out before they all got fixed. Hopes dashed.

RRT III was visionary but not very exciting to play. No sales money to refine it - Sid Meyer took over. Hopes dashed.

The 'Tropico' concept farmed-out to Frog City for a Pirate game "prequill". Hopes raised - pirates popular. A brave flop. Frog City gone. Hopes dashed.

PopTop wanders off into war games and produces a resounding dud. Phil leaves. Sales/mergers send PopTop to the game development world's rendering plant. Hopes crushed.

The rendering works which holds title to the carcass of Tropico sells the hide to a German firm and they contract out development to a Bulgarian firm.

Having had our hopes crushed by several "home-town" firms who dissolved into obscurity, why do you expect that we will inflate our hopes to huge proportions based on firms which are obscure to us and are noted for production of games for the European market -- not the U.S. market?

It will be nice if they publish a reasonable game. But our estimate of the odds for sales in the U.S. is not in their favor. Financially they won't die because European sales will cover costs. But the game won't be the hopes of the PopTop fans from the start.

That's how you balance hope with pessimism.

[suntzu]

Why is everyone here so pessimistic about Haemimont Games ?

I hope the best from them.

if you had any experience with their previous games you would know  . basically their mo is to take popular themes and reimpliment them at the bare minimum, focusing on graphics and token features to carry the game. their biggest franchise is the "Rome" series, and as any god game/city building veteran knows this theme has been done to death, they basically took this dead horse out back and brutally beat it repeatedly until there was nothing left. the base code for this graphics/unit engine was used over and over for about 7 different iterations and marketing regions.

but imo they deserve some credit for decent interface design and somewhat improved stability in their latest work. besides the usual rehashing for 'Grand Ages' and the pointless multiplayer once again tacked on, the mechanics of the game were somewhat improved, with expense to the total removal of their unique unit control features. they tried handling this feature in their previous versions, similar to tropico in that you could see individual citizens and their families, and follow them in their occupations. but the ai was so bad, and the engine so problematic that they basically threw their hands up and stripped it out of the next version.

so what this means for Tropico 3 and any multiplayer mechanics it may have we still have yet to see, but I would have to agree in that we should not get our hopes up. my honest prediction is that we will get a graphically pretty game with a mere husk of the original's gameplay.

is this necessarily a bad thing though? think about the problems poptop had as well with bringing together everything they put into T1. it might do some good to simplify the mechanics a bit to a point where they at least work predictably so that we can get to, you know, playing the game, instead of chasing wandering dockworkers and college educated farmers all over the island hoping to get them to do what you want them to do.

[el_malo]

suntzu, a good post.

It is refreshing to see someone post that uses their brain.

[Coconut Kid]

[Re. Haemimont] if you had any experience with their previous games you would know. Basically their M.O. [method of operation] is to take popular themes and reimpliment them at the bare minimum, focusing on graphics and token features to carry the game. Their biggest franchise is the "Rome" series, and as any god game/city building veteran knows this theme has been done to death, they basically took this dead horse out back and brutally beat it, repeatedly, until there was nothing left. The base code for this graphics/unit engine was used over and over for about 7 different iterations and marketing regions.

But, IMO they deserve some credit for decent interface design and somewhat improved stability in their latest work. Besides the usual rehashing for 'Grand Ages' and the pointless multiplayer once again tacked on, the mechanics of the game were somewhat improved, with expense to the total removal of their unique unit control features. They tried handling this feature in their previous versions similar to tropico in that you could see individual citizens and their families, and follow them in their occupations. But the AI was so bad, and the engine so problematic that they basically threw their hands up and stripped it out of the next version.
...

I note with interest a couple of your points.

Since this thread is nominally about multi-player, it's interesting to see you call Haemimont's multi-player system both "pointless" and "tacked-on". I was hoping that this thread/discussion would lead to some sort of idea how "multi-player" could actually fit a god-game like Tropico.

It's also interesting that you suggest that this rework of Tropico is likely to be little more than an upgrade of the graphics with the token addition of auto and trucks.