Critique of new feature: segregated natives

[Caribbean King]

Maybe you should give your family appropriate smoking pipes to indulge their "native" habits.

CK What did you mean by that?  Was that sarcasm?

[el_malo]

CK What did you mean by that?  Was that sarcasm?

Yes, CK was being sarcastic... towards the developers and publisher.

[Caribbean King]

LOL. Thanks

[Coconut Kid]

... perhaps I'm not soaking in the information the right way.  There are going to be natives on the island (Tropico natives)  and they will be forced in these enclaves?  Is this right?  I must have a misunderstanding, ...

If I may suggest -- you are having a problem with the semantics -- word definitions.

In T1, any person unit created or born on the island was a Tropican. Any other person unit had an other original identity. Most of that had nothing to do with game play except in a couple of specific starting parameters.

The introduction to T3 of an "Ethnic Enclave" has to do with the situation described in this thread.

Someone - either the developers or the publishers, thought it would be a great addition to T1 to add indigenous "Red Indians" living in a primitive state on a part of the island in order to sell the game to the Europeans (especially the Germans) who are fanatically crazy about the Cowboys & Indians of the American Wild West. Since the story line of the game has to do with the Cold War starting in the 1950s, this was a silly idea.

However, it seems to have persisted in a "downsized" mode as an entertainment building = "Ethnic Enclave".

Perhaps part of your problem in understanding the issue is the difference between "native" and "indigenous" in the terminology that the game uses.

It seems that this questionable addition has to rely on the term "native" as being quite innocent.

However, the Kalypso marketing department seems to wish to conceal the basis of the "Ethnic Enclave" which the Haemimont developers are willing to explain.

[Unsigner]

Just got an OK from Kalypso.

The Ethnic Enclave is a tourist attraction building, where normal Tropicans - just like everybody else on the island - go to work, dress up as "natives" and entertain the tourists by acting "ethnical". (I'm not sure what animations are implemented.) Outside of work, they are normal Tropicans: they collect a wage, rent a house, go to church etc. It's just a job anyone can pick - including an immigrant fresh off the ship.

To quote the description of the building in the game,

Nobody on Tropico knows exactly what happened to the indigenous people of the Island, but one thing is for sure: the so called 'Authentic Natives', which you present to the gullible tourists, are as fake as the breasts of Tropico's famous baywatch babe Amela Panderson.

[Caribbean King]

OH!!!!!  So it's like an educational thing.  I'm cool with that.

[Unsigner]

I wouldn't call it educational, more like a scam for tourists :-)

[Timo]

However, the Kalypso marketing department seems to wish to conceal the basis of the "Ethnic Enclave" which the Haemimont developers are willing to explain.

You know, I would really appreciate if you would stop making these assumptions. We are not concealing anything, we are just unable to react to every single question immediately - all we ask for is a little patience and understanding.

I think we have shown that we are more than willing to work with the community and fans of the original Tropico to make a great game, but situations like these are really frustrating - especially since most of us "officials" are posting on these forums not because it's our job and we get paid for it but because we like to discuss the game and really appreciate your feedback.

Thank you.

[Coconut Kid]

OH!  So it's like an educational thing.  I'm cool with that.

Barnum's American Museum was educational in a sense.

Phineas Taylor Barnum (July 5, 1810 – April 7, 1891) was an American showman, businessman, and entertainer, remembered for promoting celebrated hoaxes and for founding the circus that became the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus.
He moved to New York City in 1834 and embarked on an entertainment career, first with a variety troupe called "Barnum's Grand Scientific and Musical Theater", and soon after by purchasing Scudder's American Museum, which he renamed after himself. Barnum used the museum as a platform to promote hoaxes and human curiosities such as the "Feejee Mermaid" and "General Tom Thumb."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Barnum

Not to belabor Barnum - but how do you feel about menageries and museums of "freaks", such as were common in the late 19th century? They are often now called "Side Shows". Perhaps you consider them education institutions.

In America, a sideshow is an extra, secondary production associated with a circus, carnival, fair or other such attraction.
The "Ten-in-One" offers a program of ten sequential acts under one tent for a single admission price. The ten-in-one might be partly a freak show exhibiting "human oddities" (including "born freaks" such as midgets, giants or persons with other deformities, or "made freaks" like tattooed people or fat people.) However, for variety's sake, the acts in a ten-in-one would also include "working acts" who would perform magic tricks or daredevil stunts. In addition, the freak show performers might also perform acts or stunts, and would often sell souvenirs like "giant's rings" or "pitch cards" with their photos and life stories.

Viewing "human oddities" became distasteful as the public conscience evolved, and many localities passed laws forbidding the exhibition of freaks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideshow

Personally, I find the "Ethnic Enclave" to be directly in the tradition of exhibiting human "freaks" and therefore an appeal either to the player's baser instinct or to the player's ignorance of what it is.

One thing for sure, the "Feejee Mermaid" might pass in the game while "Authentic Natives" identified to the player as fakes, represent yet another insensitivity to the ways racial prejudice is shown.

[Coconut Kid]

You know, I would really appreciate if you would stop making these assumptions. We are not concealing anything, we are just unable to react to every single question immediately - all we ask for is a little patience and understanding. ...

If you will be so kind as to notice, the original two posts in this thread are dated February 10 and the question about the use of "Indigenous People" in the game was raised in them. So we were hardly looking for an instant answer by August.

I regret very much that you all did not recognize that introducing "indigenous people" into the game might be an inflamatory issue. At the very least, one would expect that you would be able to recognize some of the social issues which might be "hot buttons" to a part of the market. And then having recognized them, you would have a strategy for keeping them cooled off.

Please don't try to shift the thousand pound gorilla to my back. I have discovered by 70 years of hard experience that dishing out free and copious quantities of "patience and understanding" leads directly, and without passing GO to collect $, to being ignored.

[Caribbean King]

How would it be the same as a "Sideshow"?  I think the two are completely different, the building in the game has it so people get a job there and dress up as Tropico Natives & do whatever there suppose to do.  In my opinion I would consider it an educational experience but Timo has already said that it is not and it's more of a scam, which I'm not sure how I feel.  Sideshows are those things in which people go to see a "Unicorn" which is something like a donkey with a horn strapped to it's head, or the "Amazing Fat Lady", please girlfriend just can't put the fork down, I see enough of those on the street.

[Coconut Kid]

..., the building in the game has it so people get a job there and dress up as Tropico Natives & do whatever they are supposed to do.  In my opinion I would consider it an educational experience but ...

You say you are "part native", yet you think it is "educational" for people who are not native at all to dress-up and pretend to be natives while what they are doing is playing to all the sterotypes of the people who pay to see them. Are you not assuming that their pretense is based on a knowledge of reality?

I suggest that you need to check in with the Native Community from which you claim a heritage to see how they feel about having other folks pretend to be them for educational purposes in a paid admission situation.

Perhaps you would be in favor of an expansion pack for T3 to have a tourist attraction called a "Slave Market" where ordinary Tropicans could get a job acting as slaves to be auctioned off on the block as in the old plantation days?

[Caribbean King]

The people dressing up to be natives are all tropians anyway.  It's a building for the tourist to go to and spend money on.  Yes for me to go to a place that is suppose to have let's say the "Lakota" people dressed up and talking about there heritage and I was to see an all white man dressed up or an Asian dressed as a Lakota and talking about "their" indian culture would be odd.  For the game however they are already Tropicans dressing up as there ancestors.  Unless the native people are not related to the people of Tropico at all then that would be different.   

You say you are "part native"

Yes I did, my Mother's side Powhatan and my Father's Mattaponi. 

[Coconut Kid]

The people dressing up to be natives are all tropians anyway.  It's a building for the tourist to go to and spend money on.  Yes for me to go to a place that is supposed to have let's say the "Lakota" people dressed up and talking about their heritage and I was to see an all white man dressed up ... as a Lakota and talking about "their" Indian culture would be odd.  For the game however they are already Tropicans dressing up as their ancestors.  Unless the native people are not related to the people of Tropico at all then that would be different.

You are making some huge assumptions about the game. You are also displaying some woeful ignorance about prejudice. Please tell me how you would or can tell "an all white man" dressed up as a Lakota or any other US tribe? You could not, and you would be duped. Your "educational" experience would be bougus, and you would go on your way to spread that information - good or bad - as if it were valid.

As to your assumptions about the game:

... The Ethnic Enclave is a tourist attraction building, where normal Tropicans - ... - go to work, dress up as "natives" and entertain the tourists by acting "ethnical[ly]". ... Outside of work, they are normal Tropicans: they collect a wage, rent a house, go to church etc. It's just a job anyone can pick - including an immigrant fresh off the ship. ...

Now what happens to your assumptions about the game where "people dressing up to be natives are all Tropicans anyway? Just off the boat, newly minted Tropicans suit your idea?

I repeat my suggestion - go check with the Powhatan elders and with the Mattaponi elders about how they feel about this. That would seem to have some more relevance than the German publisher and the Buligarian developer.

[Caribbean King]

Alright alright I can tell that this is going to become another war and I really don't feel like being in one.  I'm going to drop this right now, I'm am sooo done with this one.

[Coconut Kid]

This is not a flame war about individuals.

It seems to me to be a discussion with different view points. I am trying to express my views/opinions strongly with supporting evidence.

Those who disagree are free to do so. I hope that they would do so with supporting evidence. However, if they rely simply on their opinions -- that's fine.

Then we all know where we stand.

[el_malo]

Hhhhhmmmm, so if I was to code a game called Teutonia, and include an ethnic enclave called Auschwitz, it would be OK.

In this ethnic enclave, the citizens of Teutonia would dress up as SS guards, herd tourists in to fake showers and sell lampshades.

Nothing wrong with it.

It is just meant as fun and to scam the tourists.

[Coconut Kid]

@ El_Malo

Sorry, if you were in business in Germany, your game Teutonia and its "fun tourist attraction" would be recognized for its Jewish connections and you would do the "perp-walk"!

However, if you were to design your fun tourist attraction to be about the Turks on the Armenians, or the Bolsheviki Russians on the Ukrainians, or the Spanish (British or Portugese) Conquistadors on the Native Americans -- then you are home free. Everyone laughs and says, "it's just a game!" -- what can it hurt?, look at Grand Theft Auto, what has it hurt?

It is useless to expect a marketing department to have a droplet of social sensitivity.

[el_malo]

Silly me, I keep forgetting that it is OK to mock and ridicule the "lesser breeds", but a cardinal sin to do the same to the superior beings.