Hospitals, churches and pollution.

[nmikey84]

I've had this game since it came out, and when I was younger I would just play cheating with unlimited funds. The last time I played I decided OK I'll try actually playing this game. I ended up paying people WAAAAAY too much.

I've finally figured out how to play this game sucessfully. My last game was the most sucessful one I'd ever played but it ended up creating all these new issues because things were getting really big and successful.  But now I have a question(or two).

OK in my new game I've already built one church right next to my palace.  I'm building two cathedrals, one near the church (in my main city) the other near my industrial center, also I will build one more at the other end of my industrial center. When the cathedrals are built, I will close down (but not destroy) the church. Will that ensure that my religion rating stays in the 80s-90s? Or do I need the church?

I'm trying to cluster my needs buildings near my worker buildings. I would place 1 hospital (preventative) and 2 clinics (gerentology,obstetrics) in the cluster. My question is how do they work exactly. Should I have 3 hospitals to get higher ratings? If someone goes into a clinic for P they get thier need filled and a 60 rating, if they go to a hospital they get 90. If they go to a G clinic what happens? Does it just give them the age benefit? Or do they walk out with their need filled, a 60 rating and the age benefit, and does that then mean I should build 2 hospitals and ignore P? Or am I right in building the 1 hospital for P and having the 2 clinics to get the unrelated side benefits?

Also when available should I build any upgraded entertainment buildings in my worker areas, I ususally only build them in my elite area. But is it worth it to replace the regular resturants or anything?

Lastly is there anything that can be done about pollution other then the anti-litter and anti-air pollution edicts? I don't want to have my industrial buildings scattered all inefficient over the island. I'd rather have one really polluted area over an entire island moderately polluted.

Two other things, I can't spell check or search the forum. I get an "Internet explorer cannot display the webpage" message.

Thank you for your help. I'm really liking this game now that I have the hang of it.

[Coconut Kid]

Thanks for the interesting questions. Perhaps you may wish to read this thread:
http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.0
It is a partial substitute for the search function.

I've had this game since it came out,

exactly which version do you have?

... in my new game I've already built one church right next to my palace.  I'm building two cathedrals, one near the church (in my main city) the other near my industrial center, also I will build one more at the other end of my industrial center. When the cathedrals are built, I will close down (but not destroy) the church. Will that ensure that my religion rating stays in the 80s-90s? Or do I need the church? ...

Maintaining your over-all religion 'score' is a complex, dynamic matrix which is probably not well understood.

There are a number of schools of thought about the use of churches & cathedrals. Issues:

• the different building costs & maintenance costs
• Service Index, 60 vs 90
• priest vs bishop, education & pay
• crime suppression levels, -10 vs -15 (both at range 20)
• religious presence, 35/25 vs 60/50
• tourism value, 5/4 vs 20/10
• beauty, 5 vs 10

If costs are not important, the Service Index is typically the most important consideration.

Certainly, building placement is critical in all cases. An educated guess is that no purpose is served by overlapping church and cathedral 'religious presence' coverage. Therefore, a church and a cathedral should be no closer than 75 tiles.

If you go with the school that says the church is a waste because of the Service Index, then you need only one church to enable the construction of cathedrals. If there is no danger that any cathedral might be lost to a hurricane or rebel attacks, then the church can be eliminated after all the needed cathedrals are built.

It does need to be mentioned again that the game is based on a large number of dynamic factors. Putting them all together is not so simple as it might appear.

 

[Coconut Kid]

... I'm trying to cluster my needs buildings near my worker buildings. I would place 1 hospital (preventative) and 2 clinics (gerontology,obstetrics) in the cluster. My question is how do they work exactly. Should I have 3 hospitals to get higher ratings? If someone goes into a clinic for P they get their need filled and a 60 rating, if they go to a hospital they get 90. If they go to a G clinic what happens? Does it just give them the age benefit? Or do they walk out with their need filled, a 60 rating and the age benefit, and does that then mean I should build 2 hospitals and ignore P? Or am I right in building the 1 hospital for P and having the 2 clinics to get the unrelated side benefits?...

We all wish we knew how the health care buildings work - exactly.  

Issues:

• the different building & maintenance costs
• hospital requires electricity
• Service Index, 50 vs 90
• both require doctors rather than "two tier" staff (as religion)
• crime generation, 3/10 vs 4/10
• beauty, -1 vs -2

Unfortunately, there is no 'health care presence' game value (as compared with religion's data). So coverage for 'health care need' has to be far less precise. It is a generally accepted guess that health care buildings should be centered on 'clusters' of residences.

The effect of the options (identical for clinics and hospitals) of Preventative, Obstetrics & Gerontology are far from specific. Indeed, the determination of the life span of the 'person units' remains a matter of speculation listed in supplemental below. There have been some tests to try to determine death rates.

In these tests, the results seem to indicate that:

• units (persons) do NOT chose to use or not to use a building based on its option setting
• all units receive full satisfaction according to the service index of the building without effect by the option setting
• there is no evidence that Gerontology has to do with 'retirees', the educated guess is that it lengthens the life of those 40+ (the skilled workers)
• the educated guess is that Obstetrics helps increase the birth rate

The results seem to indicate that providing multiple health care buildings set to the different options is may be a waste of resources. The units (persons) do NOT choose health care buildings based on the 'options', rather they choose based on the "'Service Index.'

As 'Dictator', you have to chose the focus of your health care system.

Supplemental

The best evidence is that a unit's death date is set as part of its generation routine. It may die sooner due to:

• Violence - gun shot: assassination or combat
• Starvation
• Lack of Rest (sleep in building) effect unknown due to lack of actual observation
• Lack of Access to Health Care Buildings
  • Each default recharge of the "need meter" subtracts one year - up to five - from the set death date
  • Each visit to a gerontology facility adds one year - up to five - to the set death date
• Random Events - mass effects
• Cheat - Muerte

.
The Tropican does not do a good job of simulating the variables of mortality and morbundity of a Caribbean island.

[Coconut Kid]

... Also when available should I build any upgraded entertainment buildings in my worker areas, I ususally only build them in my elite area. But is it worth it to replace the regular resturants or anything?...

There are only two kinds of entertainment buildings with two levels: Booze & Eating Out.

Your people have five entertainment desires:

• Booze
• Eating Out
• Gambling
• Sports (soccer)
• Titilation for men

The Service Quality of each is:

• 35/70
• 40/80
• 55
• 60
• 60

There is not a 'fixed' formula about this for building placement. The general guidance is that your people are happier if they have access to all of their entertainment desires.

You have to balance the costs (including electric service) among the buildings and the desire for variety. Most/many players think the game design messed-up on the 'Service Quality' ratings of these buildings. If you read them as most players do, your people will do without gambling and sports. But your men will have 'titilation' long before they have better booze and food.

The major incentive for the 'up-grades' for booze and food is the Tourist trade. That involves different ratings and placement considerations.

[Coconut Kid]

... Lastly is there anything that can be done about pollution other then the anti-litter and anti-air pollution edicts? I don't want to have my industrial buildings scattered all inefficient over the island. I'd rather have one really polluted area over an entire island moderately polluted. ...

It has to be a balance between cost and efficiency.

If you can figure out how to do it, you can have hundreds of teamsters carrying goods from the basic production points to a highly polluted industrial zone where the factories are. You will have to deal with the teamster's desire to carry goods by the most direct route to the 'export' point.

There are some other 'mitigating' steps with plants, but mostly -- you have to live with it. Look at the building 'upgrades' and options carefully.

[Coconut Kid]

... Two other things, I can't spell check or search the forum. I get an "Internet explorer cannot display the webpage" message. ...

I'll try to get this posted where it will come to Cafe Dave's attention.

This is not the most active board on the net, eh?

 

[nmikey84]

I have Mucho Macho version 153.

OK, I'll get rid of the church once all the cathedrals are built. Between the police station and the incorruptable choice, crime isn't an issue. And I can always fit a few fountains on the side of the cathedral.

It seems then that I only need one hospital. The bonus effects of the clinics I can do without, knowing now that I CAN do without them (does that make sense?)

I'll add casinos to my worker clusters, but not anything else.

I was worried about that with pollution. My island is a mess. I don't know why farms are considered so ugly though. What sucks is that my "downwind" area is where I want to have my tourist area, because it is in between the fort and ruins.

Thank you for answering my questions, and all your help with the game.

[Coconut Kid]

... The results seem to indicate that providing multiple health care buildings set to the different options is a waste of resources. ...

That needs to be clarified quite a bit.

It is a waste to build "side-by-side" health care buildings just so the different options can be offered.

It is still necessary to be concerned about:

• the time people take to travel from home to health care
• the "through-put" capacity of the facilities

I did not mention "through-put" before in this thread. (Sorry about that.) All of the buildings which service/recharge Tropicans' needs do so at a limited speed in a limited space. Individuals who "have a need" also have a telepathic sense about when they can get served at the nearest appropriate building with the highest "service index." Tropicans are very single minded and do not adapt well to forming queues.

It seems then that I only need one hospital.

You may wish to reconsider that conclusion. It is correct that a mix of Clinics and Hospitals is useless. People will walk past a Clinic to go to a distant Hospital because of the "Service Index." Whether they will do that if the Hospital is packed full and the Clinic is empty is not a known factor. It depends on where there is an open slot when they need to visit.

 

[Coconut Kid]

... Certainly, building placement is critical in all cases. An educated guess is that no purpose is served by overlapping church and cathedral 'religious presence' coverage. Therefore, a church and a cathedral should be no closer than 75 tiles.

If you go with the school that says the church is a waste because of the Service Index, then you need only one church to enable the construction of cathedrals. If there is no danger that any cathedral might be lost to a hurricane or rebel attacks, then the church can be eliminated after all the needed cathedrals are built.

It does need to be mentioned again that the game is based on a large number of dynamic factors. Putting them all together is not so simple as it might appear.

This needs some clarification.

The "religious presence" effect of church and cathedral buildings 'satisfies' members of the Religious Faction. Therefore, if you desire a happy Religous Faction, you would plan to build those buildings in a pattern which almost "blankets" the area where your population exists with "religious presence."

In another post in this thread, I mention "through-put." If you build a "blanket" of religious buildings, you probably don't need to staff them fully without observing how well used each is.

Verisimilitude: Personally, I find it too "gamey" to have more than one cathedral per island, let alone having four (4) Bishops per cathedral [I forgot about the "Chapter" etc.]. But ---

 

[Coconut Kid]

... Also when available should I build any upgraded entertainment buildings in my worker areas, I ususally only build them in my elite area. But is it worth it to replace the regular resturants or anything?...

Your people have five entertainment desires:

• Booze
• Eating Out
• Gambling
• Sports (soccer)
• Titilation for men

The Service Quality of each is:

• 35/70
• 40/80
• 55
• 60
• 60

There is not a 'fixed' formula about this for building placement. The general guidance is that your people are happier if they have access to all of their entertainment desires. ...The major incentive for the 'up-grades' for booze and food is the Tourist trade. That involves different ratings and placement considerations.

Again, this needs clarification -- especially since you have version 1.53.

There is a tension (if not an actual conflict) in buildings which are designated for Tropican "entertainment" because they are also Tourist Attractions. Some players have reported that such crowds of tourists have descended on home-town facilities, that Tropicans have been crowded out and have caused "unrest."

Tourist Attraction buildings are designated:

• Banking
• Gambling
• Drinking
• Eating Out
• Relaxation
• Shopping
• Sightseeing
• Male Titilation
• Sports

There is an obivious overlap of the categories which motivate Tropicans. Unfortunately, the four (4) 'entertainment' buildings added by the "Paradise Island" expansion don't fit the previous pattern. That makes it a bit hard to know if they are useful for local use.

I'll add casinos to my worker clusters, but not anything else.

I'd suggest that you test that out slowly.

[Coconut Kid]

... I don't know why farms are considered so ugly though. ...

I never thought that farms were a big problem. They have a -3 beauty index. As compared with other buildings, that's not so bad. How far apart are you placing them?

They have a pollution index of 2 which radiates for 10 tiles. That has to do with a simulated exhausting of soil quality.

[nmikey84]

I started a new game, things were a bit tougher then I'd imagined.

I played as a farmer, cap. elected, hardworking, GREEN THUMB, pompous and flatulent (did I mention how much I like this game?)

I choose GT this time and pollution was almost non-existent. Even the farms which are more ugly (how?) then polluting weren't too bad. I picked the two negative traits because its easier to repair low relations with a diplomatic ministry then it is to have a faction permantly dislike me.

Maybe if I try to explain the basic layout it would be more helpful.

The farm buildings are 2x3. I build a grid of farms, where the 3 side of the farm is against a road, with 3 cells on either side and 3 cells in the back:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR                               
REEEFFFEEERAAAAARAAAAAR
REEEFFFEEERAAAAARAAAAAR
REEEEEEEEERAAAAARAAAAAR
REEEEEEEEERAAAAARAAAAAR
REEEEEEEEERAAAAARAAAAAR
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I build 2 rows of 5.

On one side of the grid I build apartment buildings 2 thick to provide housing for the farmers since each farm has 4 workers and each ap. has 6 spaces.

On the other side of the grid I build first a row of houses (or a 2x2 space for when they are needed.)
after that I have a space 15 tiles wide, in which I fit (or eventually fit) 2 distillaries, 3 cigar factories, 5 teamster buildings, 4 construction offices, a police station, a guard post and the radio stations (they have to be centralized because their range is so limited). They are built in neat strips. At the end of those buildings I build the service cluster, which has a pub, resturant, clinic, then hospital, cathedral, cabaret, market and eventually casino. I'm just starting to build the second cluster at the other end of the industrial center. I then bookend the industrial district with another row of houses and then after that another farm grid. One grid being sugar the other being tobacco. I'm thinking of having 2 stadiums at either end of the ind. center but I haven't built them yet.

I have my main city around my palace with an open area for my eventual elite area. The main city arcs around the ind. development to where it merges with the 2 dock area, so in between I built a 3rd service cluster. I have 2 docks so that this way at least ONE has working dock workers at any given time.

Where the industrial service cluster ends is pretty close to my main city\elite area so that is where I put in the T.V. stations and newspapers. Lastly scattered where needed are police stations, guard posts and markets. (usually together). Food is provided by corn farms clustered around 2 teamster offices, off to the side of my city... I haven't gotten to the point where everything I want to have done is done, so I tend to neglect food farms since they can just be plopped out of sight.

I've had problems with health care the entire game, I've had cathedrals since pretty early on and my religion rating is only like 40 something. I'm thinking about having one Preventative clinic and one P hospital per service cluster, and also having one church and cathedral per service cluster. I know its expensive and extravagent but with the cigars, spiced rum and media, I've got money to burn (finally).

Keep in mind I am still trying things out and while I am getting the hang of things alot of this is still kind-of experimentation. I'll start a new game, and see if these changes lead to higher ratings in the happiness index.

Also in case it helps:
Uneducated-------$9  then $12 in 1980 then sometime after 2000 it gets raised again to 15
HS----------------$21 then $24, 27
C-----------------$31 then $34, 37 I ended up paying docs and bishops $40, since they seem to leave more often then the others.

Apt. 3, then 4, 5                          Pub 8, 9, 10 noDC      Casino (NICSLO) 10, 15 (they get built later on)
House 7 then 8, 9                        Res 9, 10, 12 Linen
Condo\lux 10, 12(2000)                 Cab 9, 10, 15 noDC

Again thanks for your help.

[Coconut Kid]

... The farm buildings are 2x3. I build a grid of farms, where the 3 side of the farm is against a road, with 3 cells on either side and 3 cells in the back: ...

You are really jamming the farms into an uneconomically small space.

>>Farm Sprawl. Is there a relationship of a farm's size and its productivity?
 Steinmeyer advises that farms will sometimes [usually] have higher productivity if they are spaced out so that farmers can pick the best cells to cultivate.  If the farms are close together, it's possible that a farm may become boxed in and the workers will be unable to plant to the fullest extent.  A farmer will plant only to a radius of five cells out from a farm, so closely-packed farms may run out of space.  This is especially true of Coffee, Papaya, and Bananas, which tend to sprawl more because of the longer growing cycle and the smaller amount of attention that each cell requires.  Steinmeyer's personal strategy:  "I usually plant Coffee, Papayas, and Bananas far from my main town.  I put the other farms close to town, and even at high densities, but then I bulldoze the close-in farms as my town expands.  Note that for the three tree-crops, after the first planting a farmer needs to work the cell only once per harvest cycle, whereas for other crops, each cell must be worked twice per harvest cycle - once to plant, and once to harvest.  So, a 4-farmer tree farm can typically sprawl to almost twice the size."<<

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg185787#msg185787

Experience shows that the tree farms will fill the entire 5 cell radius with trees. Field crops that are worked twice per cycle will have unplanted cells within the 5 cell radius, but they may/will vary from cycle to cycle (based on the rainfall pattern). Field crop farms may be quite productive with less than the 5 cell radius, but arbitrary reductions by side may not be a good idea. 4 radius = OK; 3 radius = ?; 2 radius = no.

The Apartment Complex does not pollute but does have a "Beauty Index" of -2.

the farms which are more ugly (how?)

To the Environmentalists, a farm is less beautiful than the natural forest. And so forth for other factions. These are the values assigned by the game developers and are not justified by reference to a "verisimilitude" chart related to pollution vs "soil quality.".

[Coconut Kid]

... I played as a farmer, cap. elected, hardworking, GREEN THUMB, pompous and flatulent

There are at least a couple of commentaries about the various combinations for defining the Dictator.

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg187099#msg187099

... , 5 teamster buildings, 4 construction offices, ... and the radio stations (they have to be centralized because their range is so limited). They are built in neat strips.

Teamster's Offices need to be close to the source of the goods they are intended pick up. Construction Offices need to be close to construction sites so they come and go as growth is accomplished. Radio Stations have a variable range based upon the altitude of the place they are built. Therefore, those buildings do NOT really lend themselves to a "neat strip" grouping.

At the end of those buildings I build the service cluster, which has a pub, restaurant, clinic, then hospital, [church then] cathedral, cabaret, market [#1] and eventually casino.

This cluster should be the center of a housing area -- the center of a circle.

... with the 2 dock area, ... I have 2 docks so that this way at least ONE has working dock workers at any given time.

Watch out! If you put two docks too close together you can screw-up the programmed way ships find their way to the docks. Additionally, it really doesn't help to have dock workers working on one dock if the other dock has all the goods to be shipped. A better system to keep dock workers on the job is to have their housing adjacent to the dock with "service cluster" very close. Rarely are more than four docks needed with distribution of one in each quadrant of the island.

... Lastly scattered where needed are ... and markets. (usually together). Food is provided by corn farms clustered around 2 teamster offices, off to the side of my city

Markets are used to move food close to housing so people don't spend time searching for food. Corn is not the only food. Although providing a variety of food has no an undefined benefit; sometimes it is more productive to grow other types of food so if it is exported, you make more money. O strpmg;y recommend matching a Marketplace with every Tenement or equivalent cluster of housing units.

... Uneducated-------$9  then $12 in 1980 then sometime after 2000 it gets raised again to 15
HS----------------$21 then $24, 27
C-----------------$31 then $34, 37 I ended up paying docs and bishops $40, since they seem to leave more often then the others. ...

There are some interesting discussions about pay scales. I'll post links here later.

Look here about dock workers:

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg188847#msg188847

[Coconut Kid]

There are two schools of thought about Pay Scales and managing them.

Socialist: Low income disparity. Start at income levels 4/6/8 for respective education levels, and end 50 years later somewhere at 12/16/20.

Capitalist: Income Ratio 1/3/8¹ for respective education levels.² (Use 3/9/24 as a base for ease of computation of rents.)

¹Could be more extreme, but one runs out of the top range available too soon.

²To convert this to a quintile scale, use 3/6/9/18/27 for steps divisible by 3 to aid computation of rents. There is the risk of bumping the top of the scale if one uses too many raises.

>>Quintile pay just means 20% brackets.

1st quintile - top 20% of the people (the rich)
2nd quintile - 21-40% of the people (the solid middle class)
3rd quintile - 41-60% of the people (the solid working class)
4th quintile - 61-80% of the people (the working poor)
5th quintile - 81-100% of the people (the bottom of the barrel, often unemployed)

Note that you can have more than one quintile reflecting the same pay rate.

Average pay: Take all the pay and divide by all the people.<<

An example for quintile:
I pay my most important people very well. Looking at the income disparity page, I've adopted a tactic of paying my people in quintiles, as opposed to a flat 3 pay levels for uneducated, educated and college.
All unskilled jobs are paid the lowest quintile;
All high schoolers are paid the 2nd lowest, except -
Priests and soldiers, who are paid the middle quintile.
All college jobs are paid the 2nd highest quintile except -
Doctors, Bishops and Generals and Engineers, who are paid the highest quintile.

My starting pay scale starts at 6¹/12/15/18/21 And gradually scales up from there.

¹For short time only, quickly raised to 9.

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg186001#msg186001

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg185840#msg185840

[Coconut Kid]

Opps, I meant to comment in the last post.

You probably ought to start a new thread as you move from map to map.

Trying to cram everything about the game into one thread soon outruns the title of the thread -- which makes it less useful to all the folks who read the board.

 

[Brf]

Yup. You had your farms way too close together.... and then having the roads and apartments right there too, I am surprised you had any farm-land at all.

If you thought GreenThumb was great for pollution, try the GreenThumb/Naturalist combination. You will be able to build factories and mines right in the middle of town without ever having to worry about pollution.

[Coconut Kid]

Sorry, but actually we can be more informed based on the "in-game" information that appears in the "Info Bar" when the cursor is on the option.

The default Preventive Medicine is so popular because it "decreases the need to visit Doctors" by 20% for those who have their 'Health Care Need' bar recharged at that building. That seems to mean that those individuals will have that "bar" discharge 20% slower. There is no definitive measure published for the "normal" period for discharge of that bar.

Meanwhile, anyone who visits a health care building set to either of the other two options will have their "bar" discharge at the normal rate. However, if the option is Obstetrics, married females will be 50% more likely to become pregnant - all others will just get a normal bar recharge.

If the option is set to Gerontology, the building users will be subject to an "extension of the average life span by up to 5 years." There has been some considerable testing to try to determine either the normal life span or the normal death rate - depends on how you look at it. It is hard to relate those tests to "an extension of up to 5 years."

There seems to be no pattern of infant/youth deaths such as could be expected. There seems to be some evidence that the length of life is established per unit as the unit is created. While the end date may be random, it is not distributed on a reverse bell-curve.

While the usefullness of Gerontology is murky, the idea is not too far-fetched that it may preserve skilled workers for longer service on the job. That "up to 5 years" certainly is not going to make an excess of Retirees, or keep them going much longer. It absolutely has nothing to do with Retirees only.

For what it is worth.

 

[Coconut Kid]

BUMP !

There is a lot of good information here.