Tropicans should have savings

[VictorS]

While this game is so detailed in many aspects, it is severely lacking in the economic model. The major shortcoming is that Tropicans do no have savings. It is ridiculous that a doctor who has been earning tons of money for most of his life will suddenly have to live in a shack when he retires. Parents should pay for their 13-year-old kids' livings when they're taking high schools (unless the parents can't afford it). A 29-year-old adult who decides to go a different direction in his life and take further eduction would likely have made sure he has enough savings to cater for himself during eduction, or otherwise he would likely have decided to work a few more years to save the money he needs.

Adding an option to build free housing specific for students and retirees will partially solve the problem - right row the player has to micro-manage a housing's residents to manually implement this idea (evicting anyone who isn't a student or retiree), which is utterly frustrating. But even with this enhancement, the game will still be lacking. Tropicans do not feel like real inhabitants of Tropico, and the reason is that there is no economic flow between Tropico and the Tropicans. Money means money to the treasury, but it doesn't mean money to the Tropicans. The salary a Tropican earns each month doesn't belong to him/her; it just disappears. And when the Tropican goes to a pub or sports complex, he doesn't pay to be entertained; the money just comes out of nowhere and adds to the treasury.

Has anyone played Majesty (The Fantasy Kingdom Sim)? While that is a different game, in that game heroes feel like real inhabitants of the kingdom, and a major reason is that money means the same money to both the treasury and the heroes. In Majesty, each hero keeps his own savings of what he earns. When he buys a weapon in the blacksmith, he actually pays for it, and a portion of his spending on the weapon will eventually be added to the treasury as tax collected from the blacksmith (yes, that game even has a simple, effective taxation model).

Back to Tropico - compared to all the details already in the game, an economic model with complexity similar to that of Majesty is really not hard to implement. IMO it is a major oversight to be omitted. With a better economic model that applies to both Tropico and the Tropicans consistently, this game would have been excellent, a true classic. But as it is now, it comes as a bit of disappointment.  

[Toby]

Vic,
I think that you will find many people agreeing with you on this.
One of the alternatives suggested by people like 5strong was reserved housing for pensioners, kids, students and the unemployed.
Others have also asked for reserved housing for particular occupations, dockers being the most noticeable one- as the economy goes 'kaput' without them!!
It really is very hard when you have a large population, to actually police, and evict, the free loaders from your rent-free bunk houses so that the above can live there!
Toby

[Toby]

Oops!,
Jumped from your first paragraph to your third; You have already illustrated what I said-appologies.
Toby

[calm_blue_sea]

I think it is rather refreshing that Tropico has no taxes. With many games, once you get a large population the money comes pouring in and the challenge is gone. In Tropico, you only earn money from the products of their labour, and even then, only what leaves the island. More people can just mean more expenses if you're not careful. Ah, the trials and tribulations of a socialist government.

The idea of savings is pretty cool, especially if Tropicans could use their money to influence you. For example: a wealthy person might try to buy their freedom from prison or from the island (if you have put a halt on emmigration); different factions might pool their money and try to bribe you (eg to change the programing of your radio station or to revoke an edict); if you are on good standings with the religious/intelectual factions they might offer you money to help build a cathedral/university; candidates (other then you) could bribe other Tropicans; and perhaps a rebel could bribe your soldiers.

You would then have to be very carefull who gets rich (by tweaking their rent etc).

[5strong]

The reason there is no taxes is because Tropico is a communist government, meaning you own all the buildings and receive all their income.  If there was an industry tax youd just be taking money out of one place to get back from another place.   Inocme tax, if you want to get some money from your employees, just pay them less.

[Eddy]

I rationalize it by saying that the rents/industry profits/etc are actually the taxes on the items.  The building costs could represent the subsidies and such that are given.

I'll give an Amero-centric view.

Housing - Landowners get a deduction for mortgages, depreciation, write-offs, etc.  The rents charged are the "property taxes" that they pay.  When you rent an apartment, you aren't actually paying the tax directly, but believe me, landlords take it into account when charging rents.

Industry - Corporate subsidies, land grants, economic incentives, etc.  Offset by corporate gains, taxes, license fees, etc.

I look at it in a macro-economic way where things are abstract (which is my way of thinking in a game) as opposed to the literal.  That's why I have trouble with the One Tropican = One living breathing person concept.  I always assume that the person represents 1,000 people.  An apartment building really represents a whole district of apartments, tenements are the slummy parts of town, houses are the very nice suburbs, etc.

[VictorS]

I understand that in the current implementation of the game you own all the buildings, and given this assumption it is indeed superfluous to have a tax system.

But the current game would still be a lot better with individual savings. Salaries should not be lost, and rents and other income should not appear from nowhere. If you pool together the treasury and the savings of all Tropicans, the only expenses should be on construction, maintenance, and some of the edicts (e.g. praise US); and the only income should be on exports, tourism, and foreign aid. Salaries, rents and fees (other than from tourists), and the other edicts (e.g. bribe) should be just money transferred between the Tropicans and the government.

Here are some ideas of further enhancing the game. Let the Tropicans be able to own buildings that can generate income (farms, housing, entertainment etc.). You construct the building (paying the construction fee), then set the building to be open for any Tropican to take over. Any Tropican who desires to start his/her own business may take over (the degree of such desire depends on the person's faction/wealth). Once a building is owned by a Tropican, he will pay the maintenance and salaries from his personal savings, and any income (rents, fees, exports etc.) will be added to his personal savings. The government will only receive from the owner a fixed amount each month (property tax), and a proportion of the income (income tax). For simplicity, there is no income tax on salaries; just on the income for individual-owned businesses. A business can also be owned by a group of Tropicans; in that case, the expenses and income will be distributed according to the percentage ownership of each individual in the group. A private-owned business is generally more productive than a government-owned business (better output, higher entertainment value, lower maintenance cost, etc.), but since the government receives only part of the income (via tax), the government generally receives less than what it would from a government-owned business. The owner who gets the extra income will be happier (especially if he is a capitalist), and he can contribute in other ways. You can adjust the property and income tax rates, but if the owner does not make a profit for himself he will likely forfeit the business in despair.

The victory score should take into account the amount of savings of all Tropicans, not just the treasury.

When a Tropican dies, his savings is not lost; a proportion of it will be passed on to his/her spouse or children (the government can impose a tax on this), and the rest will be donated to charity. The proportion donated to charity depends on the person's faction/respect towards you. Rich people who respect you may also donate to charity periodically. Money accumulated for charity can be used to pay for maintenance and salary costs for human services (churches, hospitals, schools etc.) and to build new human services buildings.

[Coconut Kid]

I'm sorry to say this is another tiresome idea that the program "black box" can do anything easily because some other game seems to do it.

While this game is so detailed in many aspects, it is severely lacking in the economic model. The major shortcoming is that Tropicans do no have savings. It is ridiculous that a doctor who has been earning tons of money for most of his life will suddenly have to live in a shack when he retires.

The first major mistake in reasoning: It would take a huge batch of coding to provide the units with the ability actually to plan ahead. They don't now; and it's evident because they don't become students unless there are vacant jobs which require education.

Parents should pay for their 13-year-old kids' livings when they're in high school (unless the parents can't afford it). A 29-year-old adult who decides to go a different direction in his life and take further education would likely have made sure he has enough savings to cater for himself during education, or otherwise he would likely have decided to work a few more years to save the money he needs.

Why should parents pay; the 13 year old is an adult in Tropico. Student is an adult job. Unfortunately, the game's documentation does not make clear that education and social class are synonymous - so going to school is not just getting an education.

Adding an option to build free housing specific for students and retirees will partially solve the problem - right row the player has to micro-manage ..., which is utterly frustrating. But even with this enhancement, the game will still be lacking. Tropicans do not feel like real inhabitants of Tropico, and the reason is that there is no economic flow between Tropico and the Tropicans. Money means money to the treasury, but it doesn't mean money to the Tropicans. The salary a Tropican earns each month doesn't belong to him/her; it just disappears. And when the Tropican goes to a pub or sports complex, he doesn't pay to be entertained; the money just comes out of nowhere and adds to the treasury.

The PI expansion added an Edict to pay Students and Retirees so the player can pay to avoid micro managing free housing - which was not required anyway. VictorS's perception of the economic flow of money ignores the concept of some things happening below the player's level of visibility. Instead he wants to micro manage the pocket change of every individual. If he were to think it through a bit more, he would decide that he want to have costs for food, health care, religion and education assessed to each individual. Not only would the coding bulk out of control, but also the gameplay choices would be overwhelming. The pay level of employed Tropicans is a denominator used for several functions and as a cash flow item only as a charge against the treasury and an overhead accumulator. The charges for rent and entertainment are subsumed recoveries from the amount of salaries paid - not money from nowhere. It's too bad he did not study the accounting figures given in the Almanac more carefully before deciding to rewrite the game.

Has anyone played Majesty ...? ...

Who cares? But by now people have played Tropico 2 - Pirate Cove. It keeps track of the pocket change of the pirates but not the captives. The pirates are paid irregular amounts at irregular times and have only two things on which to spend their money -- entertainment and "stash." "Stash" is not spendable savings. The concept just doesn't fit with the overall game concept of the original.

Back to Tropico - compared to all the details already in the game, an economic model with complexity similar to that of Majesty is really not hard to implement. IMO it is a major oversight to be omitted. With a better economic model that applies to both Tropico and the Tropicans consistently, this game would have been excellent, a true classic. But as it is now, it comes as a bit of disappointment.

It's too bad that another little red wagon was left out. What is sadder, VictorS couldn't play the game long enough or in depth enough to discover all the other micro management details which were left out. He could have complained bitterly about them also. The war game crowd complains incessantly about the lack of command & control -- and crew served weapons, tanks, etc. ad nausea. I'm surprised he didn't jump on the economic system's lack of charges for food and services. The major point is that they really are hard to implement.

I think that you will find many people agreeing with you on this. ...

The Edict in the PI expansion took care of micro managing Student and Retiree rents. It was a minor gameplay issue anyway. Otherwise, completely wrong. There are thousands of people happily playing two sequels which have no pocket change accounting. They are not complaining about this little red wagon.

[Coconut Kid]

I think it is rather refreshing that Tropico has no taxes. With many games, once you get a large population the money comes pouring in and the challenge is gone. ... Ah, the trials and tribulations of a socialist government.
The idea of savings is pretty cool, especially if Tropicans could use their money to influence you. For example: ... [bribes from the population]

I thought that calm_blue_sea was more analytical about the actualities of the game than that. It is not a socialist, communist, capitalist or whatever government -- it's a dictatorship run by the player with property ownership abstracted. Where are these "savings" to be held where El Presidente does not have access to them? What forces him to respect the "ownership" of these accounts? "Oh ho! You wish to bribe me? With my own money which I have allowed you to use on a temporary basis? I'll take the money first and shoot you second so as not to get blood on it."

...  I look at it in a macro-economic way where things are abstract ... as opposed to the literal.  That's why I have trouble with the One Tropican = One living breathing person concept.  I always assume that the person represents 1,000 people.  An apartment building really represents a whole district of apartments, tenements are the slummy parts of town, houses are the very nice suburbs, etc.

In spite of all his silly, OT posts, Eddy actually had an excellent understanding of the game. It's too bad he didn't share more of that part of the kittens of his mind.

[Coconut Kid]

I understand that in the current implementation of the game you own all the buildings, and given this assumption it is indeed superfluous to have a tax system.
But the current game would still be a lot better with individual savings. ...
Here are some ideas of further enhancing the game. Let the Tropicans be able to own buildings ... A business can also be owned by a group of Tropicans; ..., but since the government receives only part of the income (via tax), the government generally receives less than what it would from a government-owned business. ...
The victory score should take into account the amount of savings of all Tropicans, not just the treasury.
When a Tropican dies, his savings is not lost; a proportion of it will be passed on to his/her spouse or children (the government can impose a tax on this), and the rest will be donated to charity. The proportion donated to charity depends on the person's faction/respect towards you. Rich people who respect you may also donate to charity periodically. Money accumulated for charity can be used to pay for maintenance and salary costs for human services (churches, hospitals, schools etc.) and to build new human services buildings.

The disconnect from the game concept is stunningly huge. Who would wish to play such boring, micro management?

Even given the idea that there should be a mechanism to show the player in detail how the money circulates within the internal financial system, VictorS makes too many false assumptions - e.g. the money supply is constant and money can't appear out of thin air.

Reconstructing the game to show the entire money flow of the economy would be a huge task for little improvement in gameplay interest.

Oh! And what about when El Presidente dies and the trailer shows his casket lowered into the grave, and the game ends? The 'Victory Score' for not getting out before death is Zero!