I'm bored and I have a calculator

[Gigo]

Poor ol' Eddy... didn't your omniscient powers warn you of our plan?  We had you all along!  

Yes bhar, actually about 90% of Canada's population lives within 600 km (or 100 miles) of the U.S. Border.  

Well, we can only hope that one day The U.S. and Canada will merge.  It would be the first step towards globalization.  But unfortunatly, there are many differences b/w Americans and Canadians that the majority of the population wouldn't know like for example, our laws concerning safety... there is nothing in our constitution that regards a right to own a firearm.  We actually have very strict laws concerning that topic.  Americans live a vigilante society and unless those small little things are changed, Canadians probably wouldn't want to merge.  :-/

[Chris]

Actually, I'm horrified when I hear of some place without the right to bear arms.

Besides, America is not a "Vigilante" society. There are some people who like taking justice into their own hands, but on a whole, many of us are content to let our completely messed up Justice System take control of that.

[bhar]

^{did someone say 'oh canada' 2?}

Personally, I am not against partial globalization, I support free trade and an open border with Mexico.  But I think the merging of governments in an EU-style is counterproductive.  We aren't a 'vigilante' society just because we aren't socialist and we allow guns.  We are quite civilized, and are much more accepting than more cultured nations.  I would live nowhere else than here, and I doubt most americans would want to give up our rights just to be merged with Canada and the socialist regimes of Europe.

[Gigo]

Aren't you people at least a bit frightned to know that anyone on the streets can be carrying a gun?  I'm horrifyied of such a thing!  As for my comment on America abandoning it's rights... never!  I'm just saying that there can be revisions made to your constitution.  I am suggesting it as there are some things that I would think as unacceptable!  Of coarse that's my opinion and it does not reflect that of the Canadian Nation.





Is this becoming an "Oh Canada 2"?

[bhar]

did someone say 'oh canada' 2?

That's exactly what I said a few posts ago in the little superscript.  

[Gigo]

I know... I was asking you the question

[Chris]

No, the thought that naybody on the street can be carrying a gun doesn't scare me.

You get used to it, and well, I actually kind of appreciate the fact that if I wanted to, I could be that person. Besides, I'd hate to live in a place where I can't have a gun, but any criminal can.

When you say "revisons to the constitution", that frightens me. The constitution is what the foundation of our country was built upon.

As for globalization: No! I like that we're a sovereign nation.

[Junta_Joe]

So you Canadians aren't keen on the idea of personal weapons. Ask any Australian what happened when the legal guns were rounded up. Gun crime soared. Only the crimminals had guns. All the honest folk were defensless.

What I don't understand is your aversion to guns. Your country was a frontier wilderness as long as the US was. Your grandparents, like mine, were raised with guns. A gun is a tool. I could take my automatic nailer and get a half a dozen peeps before the cops got me. Don't hear about nailer rampages do you. The key to reducing gun violence is not to take the guns away. It is solved by removing the cult of the gun. Teach children they have options when dealing with problems. Imbue them with a little self discipline and backbone. Someone is picking on you, you do the same thing back. Fear is not solved by hiding behind a gun. As far as accidents go, proper familiarization in the care and use of guns cures that. A young man of twelve who shoots a 12 guage and has to clean it afterward is sufficiently respectful of firearms afterward.

[Railnut]

Another fine piece of wisdom by Junta_Joe!
If he keeps it up, I may have to quit the Empress Morticcia Fan Club and start a Junta_Joe Fan Club. Hmmmm....nah, the 8x10 glossy wouldn't be as nice.

We had guns in our home when I was child. My brothers and sisters and I all learned to shoot. But most importantly, as Junta stated, we all learned to respect them as well. A gun can do no harm on its own. It takes a human being to make it work. And also, as mentions, that human being could do more damage with a fully automatic pneumatic nailer that is perfectly legal to own. Just this past week, I read a newspaper article that points out that, more and more around the world, the weapon of choice for crimes of anger against others is the good old American Baseball Bat. Personnally, I think I'd rather be shot than beat with a baseball bat.
The weapons are not the problem. The problem is the hatred and lack of respect some people have for others. Until these issues are resolved, we will continue to find ways to hurt each other.

[Eddy]

Honestly, the idea of globalization bothers me.  I don't so much mind the idea of Can*dians being part of the club because they are pretty much the same as us (only inferior   )

The idea of pretty much anything to the south of the Rio Grande being with us scares the living chaff out of me though.  Despite my joking about how the US is the greatest country ever and all other countries are nothing, I really do think the US is pretty good.  Can*da, Britain, much of western Europe, and even Australia Austrilia are decent places too.  But, the rest of the world is poverty stricken and they are light years from being comparable to us.  How can Mexico possibly be given the same footing as us when they don't have the infrastructure or capital to support our way of life?

Globalization is a nice idea, but it simply can't work.

[Morticcia]

Well, most importantly of all the color BLACK is far superior to the color HOT PINK...

[Gigo]

I wouldn't expect to change your views on the world.  You were raised the way you were and therefore you are who you are.  However, I am a very opinionated individual who has strong Christian morals.  Because of that, I fear anyone or anything that can cause pain.  Guns can cause death.  You say that only criminals carry guns... that means that anyone in the US can become a potential criminal.  You feel safe about knowing that you have a gun... I feel safe about knowing that no one has a gun.  
It might have been a fiasco for the Australians when the guns were taken from you, but Canadians never had the right from the start.  For 134 years Canada has had no rights about carrying a firearm, only strict gun laws.  These measures have been implemented and have sprouted fantastic results.  For the past 10 years in a row Canada has been named "the best country to live in" by the UN.  That title holds true in many aspects of life; education, healthcare, safety, employment, etc..  It is a title based on averages of coarse.  These are all things that Canada has exceled in when it comes to the needs of the people.  Notice how the word "safety" is there, why do you think we are "safe"?
Look at school shootings... Canada has had none, America has had many (I've forgotten how many).  While these things continue to take place, your G.W.B.'s response was a "sincere apology to the familys and friends of the victims".  No motive to stop the shootings, no motive to change gun laws, nothing!!!  The way I see it is that Americans have a complete disregard for life.  This is extremely evident in the right to own a firearm.

[Chris]

Okay, first of all, I would like to point that while were raised, that does not mean it has shaped my entire way of thinking. I am capable of having my own opinions, and while part of them may have been shaped by how I was raised, it does not mean I'm not capapble of thinking for myself. There are times, my opinions are opposite of those of my parents.

Second,  just because you're not allowed to have guns, doesn't automatically make your country "the best place to live". There are most definetly other reasons.

Third, you said "you say that only criminals carry guns". How is this true? Our police carry guns. There criminals. Skeet shooters carry guns. More criminals. People who are afraid of criminals carry guns. Guess what there are by what you said? Yep, criminals.

You take away guns, and criminals are still going to have them anyway. There will always be people who sell things illegally.

As for Globalization: I believe it's going to happen, whether we like it or not. It's just a matter of when. While I live, I don't want it to happen.

[Railnut]

However, I am a very opinionated individual who has strong Christian morals.  Because of that, I fear anyone or anything that can cause pain.

I chose this quote because it came early in your argument.
Based on your own words, do you then propose to do away with knives and forks and hammers and baseball bats and sticks and rocks and fire and automobiles and every other utensil of everyday life? Would you have that all fists and feet be lopped from our bodies? Would you end the use of words and thoughts? All these things can be used to inflict pain and sufferring on our fellow humans.
Again I say, "The weapons are not the problem. The problem is the hatred and lack of respect some people have for others. Until these issues are resolved, we will continue to find ways to hurt each other."

[Junta_Joe]

This topic of globalization seems strange in a world where nationalism and tribalism is on the rise. Even with no more land left unclaimed, the number of countries rise. Don't be shocked when America drops out of Nato and encourages the UN to move from NY by not repairing the building.

I do expect the US to pump money into Mexico to bring them up to decent standards. NAFTA is here to stay. Though this is an act of conglomerating, its is also regionalization. I do expect to see more of the EU type of organizations.

[bhar]

Because of that, I fear anyone or anything that can cause pain.  

That is the mentality behind the soccer-mom rebellion that is happening today.  (and, yes, one is happening).  Too many people today want to remove the aspect of pain from our society, the aspect of sadness, the aspect of emotion.  They want a sterile life, they want to be able to wipe their life clean of pain just as they would wipe a doorknob clean with lysol.  No guns, as they have bad connotations.  They bring up bad imagery, they remind us that bad does exist in this world, the lion occasionally catches the antelope and kills him.  People die.  No, no sane people like to think about it, but sheltering ourselves from it is a good way to end all mankind.  Ignoring things just because they bring up bad images in our mind.  Guns symbolize a bad aspect of humanity, so as their philosophy goes, do away with guns, regardless of the cost.  As long as my kids are safe and my minivan doesn't have dents.  Life is pain.  Get over it, ignoring it doesn't help.  

Personally, I'd never want America to lose its status as and independent nation.  I also believe that America should pull out of the UN very soon, as that has become a corrupt, socialist regime that lives in the past.  Today is the time of free markets, international trade, and multiculturalism.  Not slave reparations.

[Gigo]

Chris, I never said that you can't make your own opinions.  I said that I couldn't change your mind because of the way you were raised.  You were raised in every way; your parents, media, friends, education, church, etc.  Those have helped shape your life.  It doesn't mean that you can't make your own opinions... it means that your opinions are what they are because of how you were raised, what yu know, what you believe.  See my point?
Another thing is that I even said that Canada had received that title because of education, healthcare, etc.  Not only because of safety.
You should also know that police are an exception because theyuse guns to stop criminals.  They protect you.  You should have faith in your local police.  By owning firearms for self-protection, you eliminate the purpose of police.

Railnut, anything can be used for harm... i was leaning towards items that were made to cause harm.  Guns is one that is made exclusivly for harm.  You may say protection, but only by causeing harm.  Knives, bats, etc. are all used for harm but are not designed for it.  I fear the items that cause pain and death and only pain and death.

I do believe that you are right, it's the respect of the object that is abused... but I am still against the firearm. I am even against haveing militarys.  Militarys are used for protection but also are only protecting when causeing harm (except when there isn't a war).  This is why I push for a more Christian, more globalized world.  It would unite the world and eliminate the need for military.  Police will still be needed but the military will be useless.

[bhar]

Your "Christian Utopia" scares me.  Sounds like a mix between hardcore communism, 1984, and a religious superstate.  

[Railnut]

Railnut, anything can be used for harm... i was leaning towards items that were made to cause harm.  Guns is one that is made exclusivly for harm.

Then do you mean to tell me that my father's gun was somehow causing harm when he used it to feed his wife and their six children? I for one do not see it that way. And I'm sure none of my siblings would either. My family's guns were used for survival, the very thing for which they were designed. None of them was ever used to cause harm to another human being. I am beginning to resent your implications. It is starting to sound like you have no real experience from which to draw your conclusions. People fear what they do not know. Many people grow up with guns, and just because you didn't does not mean there are no appropriate reasons for owning one.
And I still stand by my assertion that the tools are not the problem. People are the problem. As long as you and others can't see that, the problem will persist.

[caddet]

Here's an interesting statistic that relates to the current topic of this thread:

According to the U. S. Department of Health & Human Services, there are 700,000 physicians in the United States.  Each year they cause 120,000 accidental deaths.  Thats 0.171 accidental deaths per physician each year.

According to the U. S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms, there are 80,000,000 gun owners in the United States.  Each year there are 1,500 accidental gun deaths in the United States.  That's 0.0000188 accidental gun deaths per gun owner each year.

Mathematically, that makes physicians about 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.  So why not outlaw scalpels and stethoscopes instead of guns.  You could save more lives that way.

Obviously, no sane person would actually argue for that.  So I must agree with Railnut.  It is not the guns, it is the users.  I specifically didn't say the owners, because the vast majority of them are responsible and save in the handling and storage of their weapon.  And by the way, I'm one of those 6 children that his father fed with the results of his hunting.

[Morticcia]

I don't mean to throw a monkey wrench into the argument, since I can see both sides...but I read that statistic too.  

The only problem with it is that it says ACCIDENTAL deaths due to guns, not PURPOSEFUL deaths due to guns...I think once that's factored in the argument loses it's punch..

[Eddy]

The United Nations publishes the "Top Ten Safest Places in the World" list, but keep in mind the UN is already anti-USA from the start so naturally we will given short shrift.  

It's just as if I were asked who are the top ten posters on the board.  Well, i'm going to name the more prolific ones and generally not even consider the many worthy peasants and tourists simply because I am biased towards the higher post counts.  It's not that I sit here and say "Oh, i shall ignore the people with only two digits in their post counter.  Heh heh heh."  It just turns out that way.

[Junta_Joe]

Gigoplex must believe that meat comes from a Saran wrap machine. Gig, I would love to drag you through a beef processing plant on a hot day.

One visit and you would consider me a saint for allowing my next deer a sporting chance.

You can't hide from pain and disaster. It will come looking for you. It will find you. It is better to be strong and prepared. Your hope for a sanitized world will weaken mankind. Man climbed to top of the food chain for a reason. We are strong. We are smart. We are resourceful. You are advocating that we stop being strong and resourceful. Your call for global government would neuter us. We would be helpless. The few would control the many. Even if mankind was completely peaceful to each other, Nature and the Universe are harsh entities. We will have to stay strong to survive. The initial space program was staffed by combat test pilots. It will be the strong individualists who carry us to the next level.

Sorry Gig, it seems you don't have "THE RIGHT STUFF".

[caddet]

Earlier, I posted a statistic that I thought was interesting.  You can read it a few posts back.  It was meant to be satirical, not serious, because everyone knows that the vast majority of people who visit physicians are helped, not killed.  But Morticcia locked in on the word "accidental", and said that "The only problem with it is that it says ACCIDENTAL deaths due to guns, not PURPOSEFUL deaths due to guns...I think once that's factored in the argument loses it's punch..".  I was going to leave that alone, but I can't.  This is the "I have a calculator" thread, after all.  So here's the "punch".

For what it's worth, lets start with the "accidental gun deaths".  Then let's throw in the gun murders.  Next, add the gun killings that are truly self defense.  And just for good measure, let's count the police shootings.  Then, for the purpose of our comparison, let's blame ALL of these on the gun owners, regardless of who committed them.  You still wouldn't come close to the 0.171 deaths per physician.

So let's include all killings in the United States, regardless of how or why they happen.  Auto accidents,  electrocutions, stabbings, drownings, you name it and we'll count it.  Let's even blame the gun owners for the physician caused accidental deaths.  You still don't have enough deaths to reach the 0.171 deaths per physician.  In fact, to reach that number, you would have to kill the entire population of the United States every 21.198 years.  That's the mathematical fact (0.171 deaths times 80,000,000 gun owners equals 13,680,000 deaths per gun owner.  290,000,000 Americans divided by 13,680,000 equals 21.198 years.)

Let's not even consider the over 750,000 unborn human children deliberately killed by physicians every year, in the name of the "right to choose"!

[Morticcia]

Maybe that indicates that the physician stat is wrong...Just a thought..