The Bible Brain Twister!

[Gigo]

I'm sorry caddet for trying to clarify what you have told us.  I also apologize for leaving out the Baptist sacrements.

[El_Subcomandante]

I just checked a Baptist website and it seems Baptist organizations have a serious beef about being lumped together into the term "Protestant".  Baptist and Protestant churches are alike in that they claim to be closer to what they consider to be the true faith envisioned by Jesus and his followers, free from the trappings of Rome.  The Baptist take on this seems to be "hey, we've been here all along", claiming descent from early churches that, according to the website, were never incorportated into the Roman Empire's version of Christianity, which became the Catholic Church (I think).  Personally I view the Baptist founding story with skepticism but it's a free country and everyone's beliefs are to be respected.

[caddet]

I appreciate your response, Gigoplex.  Obviously, I was upset when I wrote that.  And as I read it now, it sounds much stronger than I intended.  For that, I too am sorry.  I just felt that you should have said you disagree with me, rather than say what sounds like "let me tell you what caddet meant".

I'm also sorry to be so late in this reply.  I was out of town until early Tuesday morning, and the events of the next few hours have greatly affected my schedule, as I work for the Federal Government.

[Revolucionario]

I too am a devout Catholic gig!

Caddet, Catholics are Christians.

[Padre_Matthias]

Unless you go to Bob Jones university.  There, we're a cult (most likely the worlds largest!  Yay us!)  

[caddet]

I realize that Catholics consider themselves to be Christians.  But I can only speak from experience.  I was a Catholic.  I was an Altar Boy.  I attended Catholic schools until my family could no longer afford the tuition.  I recieved all the "sacraments" that were available to me.  I attended Catholic Sunday School through 12th grade.  I became a Lay Eucharistic Minister during my military service.  As a Lay Eucharistic Minister I said mass, not attended mass, several times.  I also read my Bible.  Based on what I read in my Bible, I can say with no qualifications or reservtions that I was a Catholic, but I was NOT a Christian.  The very word Christian refers to Christ follower.  One of the most basic things that Christ said is "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."  Matthew 23:9.  Yet every priest of the Catholic faith takes that title to himself, in direct defiance to Jesus' own words.  There is also no indication from scripture that you can "earn" access to heaven through the "sacraments" of the church.  In fact, most of the "sacraments" don't even appear in the scriptures.  Catholics are free to consider themselves Christians.  That is their opinion.  I just know that as a devout Catholic, I was not a Christian.

[caddet]

P.S.  I've never attended, or even visited Bob Jones University.  I know what state it's in, but that's about it.

[El_Subcomandante]

I was thinking of heading to BJU for my grad work in women's studies.  I hear they're really open minded down there.

[Branes]

One point not mentioned in these posts is the origin of Catholicism. Catholicism is actually a mixture of First Century Christianity, paganism and Judaism. The Judaism aspect is inherent in Christianity as it was the mother religion. As for paganism, I can't state the exact year, but when Constantine was Emperor of Rome he adopted Christianity as the state religion and commanded all to become baptized as Christians.  This didn't set well with many who worshipped other religions, especially the Germanic tribesmen and the worshippers of the Roman gods.  Ironically, it wasn't God or Jesus they were opposed to, but the prohibition against idols.  They were so used to praying to an idol that they didn't want to give them up.  So Constantine allowed provided them with idols in the persons of the saints, the Madonna and the crucifix.  Their "pagan" holy days were made to coincide with important Christian dates, thus we celebrate Christmas on Dec 25 which was the pagan Saturnalia a celebration of the Winter Solstice and Easter which arrives very close to the Spring Solstice and was dedicated to the sun god. The sunrise service allowed them to worship the sun as well as Christians to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus at sunrise.  As far as I know, those "holidays" were not celebrated by the early Christians prior to this time. The celebration of the fall and the harvest became All Hallows Eve or Halloween.  Although the Church tried to make it a religious holiday, it's pagan roots are still evident today. Thus Christianity became the "universal" or "catholic" religion of the Roman Empire, ruled by the Bishop of Rome, the Pope (I think from the latin for papa), the Holy Father. Peter is traditionally the first pope, but since the papacy and the Catholic Church didn't truly exist until Constantine, and Peter died much earlier than that, it's unlikely.
I'd like to state that I may have some of my facts incorrect...it's been a long time since I went to Catholic school, but the contention that Catholicism is a marriage of Christianity and paganism is accurate. This is why most Protestestants do not accept Catholicism as "true" Christianity. The strongest bone of contention between Protestants and Catholics, aside from the question of Salvation is the worship of Mary and her Immaculate Conception and Assumption.  For the uninitiated, Immaculate Conception means she was conceived without sin, like Jesus. And Catholics believe she never died, but rose to heaven, like Jesus.  Thus, Catholics have placed her on the same level as Jesus, making her divine.  This is strongly in keeping with many pagan religions which worship "The Goddess" or "Earth Mother."  In fact it is believed that the Madonna is derived from the story of the Egyptian goddess Isis and the baby Horus which is in turn derived from the Babylonian Semiramis and Nimrod. It is interesting that Semiramis instituted the first priestly confessional in order to keep tabs on the activities of her subjects. It has worked for thousands of years for the Catholic church also. Many other Catholic doctrine is derived from various pagan religions, such as the ideas of Purgatory, and Limbo.  This is why most Protestants do not
consider Catholicism as Christianity. Most of the atrocities attributed to Christianity by non-Christians can be blamed on the "Holy Roman Church" (my apologies to Catholics, coming from a former altar boy, but it's the truth). In fact, to establish my Catholic credentials, I was head altar boy for Father John J. O'Connor, a Navy Chaplain in 1962 and close family friend who later become Cardinal of New York.
Although there is a very large population of American Catholics, the Church exercises less control of its parishioners here than in other parts of the world, especially the Spanish-speaking countries.  
I apologize for the lecture, but I wanted to show why those of us who call themselves Christians do not consider Catholicism as Christianity, although there are many believers who are Catholic.

[Branes]

I apologize for the grammatical errors!  It's 1:00 am and I didn't proofread  

[Gigo]

WOW!  that was very interesting.  I want to thank you for informing me about that.




wow!  

[bhar]

That was a very good post.  I enjoyed it much.

One small thing:

I didn't think that Constantine (about 322 AD) ever forced people to be baptized as Christians or even made Christianity the official state religion of Rome.  Actually, I doubt that for this reason:

Constantine was never baptized himself until he was on his deathbed.  He still had loyalties to Roman gods.  The only reason he converted to Christianity was that he purportedly saw a battlefield vision of Christ.  Before Constantine's reign, Christians were avidly persecuted.  Constantine did not mandate Christianity when he assumed the throne, instead, he merely passed the Edict of Milan, which ended persecution of Christianity.  Christianity was not made the state religion of Rome until Theosidinius (sp?) did that about a century later.  By that time, however, Christianity had spread throughout the entire Roman Empire.  The Empire, however, did not last much longer, as Germanic tribes invaded and eventually sacked Rome around 500 AD.

peace
bhar

[caddet]

I came in to check on people's views of CivIII, and was suprised to see this thread near the top.  I had to see what was added.  After reading, I just had to re-activate my user name to respond.  Thank you for the very good, and very accurate information, Branes.  I'm glad somebody else decided to post on the history behind Catholicism.

[Eddy]

It's about time you pooosted.

There's all newbies and chicks and Can*dians and Austrians on the boards and no one to reminisce about the old days with anymore.  It's simply awful!

Stay!  And post.

[Gigo]

Oh yes... there is just too many of us here!  We're going to over throw your reign eddy!   MUHAHAHAHAHA!  


But first we've got to hear more about what Branes has to say!  

[Eddy]

Bah!  As long as I have my posting ability and the paddle of doom, I shall live forever!

It is the 1000 year reign!

AAAIIIEE!!!

[mooski]

Evenin!

   First, I'm a recovering Catholic - I'm in a twelve step program trying to deal with that...

   Nowadays, I consider Baseball as my religion.  There are many 'equivalents' involving this.

   The stadiums are the temples, the beer and peanuts the Holy Sacraments.  To me, Mecca is a tiny village in upstate New York called Cooperstown.

    How can you not walk into Yankee, Fenway or Wrigley and not get chills as you ponder the greatness that has played there, and the greatness yet to come?

   The 'Holy Trinity' could be Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle.  

   The 'High Holy Days' are in October, when the Divisional Series, the League Championship Series, and the World Series are played.

   And today, some guy named Ozzie Smith became a living saint, to officially join the 260 or so others in the Hall of Fame.

   Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson have been banished for sins against the church, although they are still honored for their on field accomplishments.

   'Easter' could be considered when the most beautiful four words to describe a day are used: "Pitchers and Catchers report"

   Some people carry religious objects with them, so do I.  My Homer Hankies from when the Minnesota Twins won the World Series in 87 and 91 are virtually ALWAYS in my back left pocket.

   And I STILL cry at the end of Pride of the Yankees when Gary Cooper, playing the part of Lou Gehrig says, "Today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth."

   And yes, I can explain the Infield Fly Rule, and even why it exists.

   Happy Happy!

[Eddy]

I approve.  A baseball bat is very similar to a paddle.  It's made out of wood and makes a satisfying sound when it hits stuff, and there is a definite style when you swing one.

Someday you may be my successor when I am too old and tired to paddle rebels.

[Gigo]

That someday will be quite a while away mooski so don't get your hopes up.  We must remember, Eddy has his 1000 year rule - i'm counting down the years!  

[Eddy]

I forgot that non-deities have short lifespans.

Well at least you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you gained some respect of mine.

Of course there is a 19.95 charge for this.  I accept all major credit cards and cash.

[Coconut Kid]

Okay, out of curiousity ... is there anything in common with the words sacrament and sacrifice?

From the Online Etymology Dictionary
http://www.etymonline.com/abbr.php

sacrament: late 12c., from O.Fr. sacrament (12c.), from L. sacramentum "a consecrating," from sacrare "to consecrate" (see sacred); a Church Latin loan-translation of Gk. mysterion "mystery."

sacrifice (n.): mid-13c., from O.Fr. sacrifise (12c.), from L. sacrificium, from sacrificus "performing priestly functions or sacrifices," from sacra "sacred rites" (prop. neut. pl. of sacer "sacred," see sacred) + root of facere "to do, perform" (see factitious). L. sacrificium is glossed in O.E. by ansegdniss. Sense of "something given up for the sake of another" is first recorded 1590s. Baseball sense first attested 1880.

sacred: c.1300, from pp. of obsolete verb sacren "to make holy" (early 13c.), from O.Fr. sacrer (12c.), from L. sacrare "to make sacred, consecrate," from sacer (gen. sacri) "sacred, dedicated, holy, accursed," from O.L. saceres, which Tucker connects to base *saq- "bind, restrict, enclose, protect," explaining that "words for both 'oath' & 'curse' are regularly words of 'binding.' " But Buck merely groups it with Oscan sakrim, Umbrian sacra and calls it "a distinctive Italic group, without any clear outside connections." Nasalized form is sancire "make sacred, confirm, ratify, ordain." Sacred cow "object of Hindu veneration," is from 1891; figurative sense of "one who must not be criticized" is first recorded 1910, reflecting Western views of Hinduism.

Draw your own conclusions, but they look to me to be very closely allied -- especially if it takes a priest to provide the link between the communicant and God to make the sacrament complete.

[Coconut Kid]

Once more, I feel obliged to say that I am a Baptist, and NOT a Protestant.  The Baptist heritage traces back to way before the Protestant Reformation.  In fact, the Catholic Church broke away from pure Christianity when the power hungry church leaders in each city began losing political influence.  In order to regain that influence, they centralized their authority under the Bishop of Rome, at the capitol of the Roman Empire.  That Bishop's office is what later became the office of the Pope.  ...

Interesting, instructive -- but rather incomplete.

Baptists comprise a group of Christian denominations and churches that subscribe to a doctrine that baptism should be performed only for professing believers (believer's baptism, as opposed to infant baptism), and that it must be done by immersion (as opposed to affusion or sprinkling). Other tenets of Baptist churches include soul competency (liberty), salvation through faith alone, scripture alone as the rule of faith and practice, and the autonomy of the local congregation. Baptists recognize two ministerial offices, pastors and deacons. Baptist churches are widely considered to be Protestant churches, though some Baptists disavow this identity.  Diverse from their beginning, those identifying as Baptists today differ widely from one another in what they believe, how they worship, their attitudes toward other Christians, and their understanding of what is important in Christian discipleship.

In 1845, the Baptists congregations in the United States split over three main issues: slavery, missions, and doctrinal integrity. The northern congregations were opposed to members in the southern congregations owning slaves, and tried to prevent slaveholders from being missionaries. However, not appointing a proportionate number of missionaries to the southern region of the US sparked animosity from the southern churches. The southern congregations were also concerned over perceived liberalism in the north, accusing some missionaries of denying virgin birth and divinity of Jesus. The split created the Southern Baptist Convention, while the northern congregations, then known as Northern Baptists, formed their own umbrella organization now called the American Baptist Churches of the USA (ABC-USA).

So caddet left us dangling over many of the finer theological points of his 'Baptist' faith. I'm especially interested in how he views the unreconstructed rebels of the Southern Baptist Convention.


In post #30, caddet states that he is an apostate Roman Catholic who has now adopted another theological mode which he considers to be based on a clearer understanding of a written document which contains the "true word of God." He certainly has a wider experience of deeply held faith in the supernatural than many people do.