Terrorist Attack in US

[Mike]

You know, what no one here seems to really want to admit...
We're stuck between a rock and a hard spot.  A war will most likely be started, and many many people will die.  I dont even know that Bin Laden and the Taliban will be among them, considering our lack of success finding Bin Laden in the past.
I pray that I am wrong, but from the information I have, there is no simple conclusion that can be detailed in any one post, or even a thread.  I pray that the government has the ability to pull this off...

[El_Subcomandante]

We are in a hard position.  We'll get revenge but it'll be difficult if not impossible to do it without radicalizing the Islamic world.  I'm worried about countries like Egypt and Jordan succumbing to the tide of fundamentalism.  A diplomatic nightmare for sure.

[Coffeebean]

I would like to add my deepest sympathies to all affected by the unbelievable events on September 11th. Mr C and I were going out for our diner in Crete in the evening and saw a crowd standing outside a bar where they had a TV showing CNN news. I thought at first it was one accidental plane crash - bad enough. Later we returned and saw those incredible, awful pictures. The only Americans I "know" are the ones on this board (except for a few who live in the UK). I thought of you and especially those who live in NY. I thought of you and of your friends and families. I was relieved to see your posts. Love and I hope a peaceful future for all.

[Malovane]

I've been doing some more research into the situation... this time from the reports of middle eastern papers... and you wouldn't believe the stupid propaganda thats coming out of them.

I was surprised however that the least biased reporting came out of Iran, which has remained very level headed about this.... though they did stop two candle-light vigils honoring our dead.

Most of the newspapers transcribed to English read stuff similar to uhmm:

Afghani clerics call for muslim nations to drive back the non-believers and save our holy warriors.

Arafat tries for cease-fire in Palestine but Jews and Americans steadfast to their killing spree, terrorist bombing of palestinian communities.

American Infidels seek to kill the impoverished people of Afghanistan for bloodthirsty retribution of attack.

American media giant CNN plays ten year old tapes of palestinian peace festival to incite rage amongst its people.

And my personal favorite was a Pakistani newspaper offering a 5000 dollar bounty on the head of any American.

It is no wonder that they hate Americans so much, look what they are telling their people.

Arafat is the peace loving guy and we are the evil people trying to punish the middle east and eradicate muslims. I guess all those peace accords that the Israelis and Americans shot for, nor the massive palestinian suicide bombing was not covered in their "free press".

We hate afghanis for no reason! Really! We just give them millions upon millions of dollars in food to them every year... just to fatten them up so we can eat them! dadgumed us big satans.

These are not terrorists, these are holy warriors! We have it all wrong... we should sit back and watch them destroy our country. It cant be BinLaden, as he is their guest! He is a holy warrior, and could not possibly be involved in a "terrorist" attack. We Americans just go around the world looking for muslims to kill, thats it...

Heh, if the people of these countries truly believe the trash their media is throwing out... man, I don't know why we try. We kill Bin Laden they will probably print that we nuked all of Afghanistan to dirt and killed 458 million fellow muslims as they were praying. Allah then will speak to Saddam and tell him that violence is now ok and to spread the word.

[Humble Opinion]

As I heard the news last week I was as shocked as anyone. I also became very much afraid. Not only because I could know someone that might have been in the WTC that day (who I still don't know where he is). But also, naturally, because it was obvious that this would have serious consequences all over the world.

I am praying that the american people can see reason in their way of choosing revenge. Bombing poor countries in the middle east will only punish the innocent, as some one said here earlier, the "dirt-poor sheperds". Theese people, especially in a country like Afghanistan, are allready victims. They are victims of the cruel fundamentalist extremist, that probably are responsable for the attack. The "dirt-poor sheperds" of Afghanistan has never been able to elect their leaders. The Taliban regime took power by force. Usama Bin Laden has his position thanks to his wealth and private army of extremists. Therefore the people should not pay the price of an US revenge. And bombing raids will never break Bin Laden nor the Taliban regime.

Bombing Afghanistan will have the following effects:
* Lots of innocent people die
* The Taliban regime will strengthen their hold on the country, thanks to the help of having an external enemy
* Usama Bin Laden will get new fanatic recruits for his "Holy War against the USA"

Does these effects seem appealing?
The goal of Usama Bin Laden has long been a Holy War against the USA. He wants support from the Islamic countries, of course. Bombing Afghanistan might give him this, at least from the more fundamentalist countries.

He wants war. Is it then a revenge to give him this? Is it a punishment to give him exactly what he wants?

[Mike]

Duly noted.  This opinion has been expressed earlier in many posts, and I agree wholeheartedly.  Our war is not with Afghanistan.  It is with the terrorists...

[Maus]

I would suspect that any bombs dropped over Afghanistan would be aimed only at two specific types of targets: 1) the patch of ground on which Bin Laden happens to be standing at the moment, and 2) the patches of ground where terrorist training camps happen to be located at the moment. The obvious problem is that terrorists are not noted for their desire to spare the lives of innocent noncombatants. I'm sure the terrorists will see to it that lots of unwitting Afghani "human shields" are mangled in the process, just as Saddam Hussein has ensured starvation amongst his own people for political advantage.

[Railnut]

To Humble Opinion and the few others who have expressed similsr concerns about the tactics of the inevitable retaliation;

Do you really think that the US Administration is going to make such a foolish mistake as thinking they can bomb Bin Laden out of Afghanistan? And if they were to somehow make such a stupid response, don't you think it would have started by now?
George W. Bush has surrounded himself with some of the most experienced diplomats and military men in the country. I seriously doubt that they are going to be foolish enough to make your fears a reality. They are taking a prudent approach to the task at hand and I think you will see that they are quite capable of making the right decisions. The onlly real variable is the response of our allies. And even that seems to be coming together rather solidly. After all, who in the world is going to stand up and say they are against eliminating terrorism.

[Peron]

As I heard the news last week I was as shocked as anyone. I also became very much afraid. Not only because I could know someone that might have been in the WTC that day (who I still don't know where he is). But also, naturally, because it was obvious that this would have serious consequences all over the world.

I am praying that the american people can see reason in their way of choosing revenge. Bombing poor countries in the middle east will only punish the innocent, as some one said here earlier, the "dirt-poor sheperds". Theese people, especially in a country like Afghanistan, are allready victims. They are victims of the cruel fundamentalist extremist, that probably are responsable for the attack. The "dirt-poor sheperds" of Afghanistan has never been able to elect their leaders. The Taliban regime took power by force. Usama Bin Laden has his position thanks to his wealth and private army of extremists. Therefore the people should not pay the price of an US revenge. And bombing raids will never break Bin Laden nor the Taliban regime.

Bombing Afghanistan will have the following effects:
* Lots of innocent people die
* The Taliban regime will strengthen their hold on the country, thanks to the help of having an external enemy
* Usama Bin Laden will get new fanatic recruits for his "Holy War against the USA"

Does these effects seem appealing?
The goal of Usama Bin Laden has long been a Holy War against the USA. He wants support from the Islamic countries, of course. Bombing Afghanistan might give him this, at least from the more fundamentalist countries.

He wants war. Is it then a revenge to give him this? Is it a punishment to give him exactly what he wants?

 Then do you suggest that we idly stand by and watch as our cities are attacked again and again for the sake of not disturbing the peaceful peasantry in other countries?

 Thousands of our own have died.  Shall we jeapordize thousands more lives for fear of reacting?  That is what he wants.  We should be so terrorized that we can't react.

 We have had enough of this frankly.

 What would his next act be if we ignored what has been done to us at the WTC?

 It is sadly ironic that you ask for our human compassion so soon after we have suffered such a huge loss of life of our own innocent citizens.  What an oversight for someone to make who seems to expfress such concern for their fellow human beings.

 We didn't pick this fight, it was forced upon us.  If the countries in which terrorists reside can't deal with terrorism, then it is high time for a coalition of nations to at least attempt to eliminate the threat of terror once and for all.

 We have the right to protect our lives too!

[Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel]

Hi Folks,


Surf over to http://www.momodesigns.com and click on one of the links. It's a tribute to the people who lost their lives in the tragedy last Tuesday. After clicking on one of the links from that page, wait until the entire Shockwave Flash file loads in (over 3 megs worth). AWESOME! AWESOME! AWESOME! AWESOME! AWESOME! AWESOME!


Rich Nagel

[Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel]

It is sadly ironic that you ask for our human compassion so soon after we have suffered such a huge loss of life of our own innocent citizens.  What an oversight for someone to make who seems to expfress such concern for their fellow human beings.

AMEN!

I firmly believe that our military will coordinate precise surgical strikes that will hit only their intended targets (which includes governments and their officials associated with and/or harboring the Scum bin Laden).


Rich Nagel

[Mike]

I agree completely.  What I dont want to see is a war on the people of Afghanistan that were uninvolved in these acts...

[Malovane]

I agree. Some countries.. Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq for instance harbor these terrorists. They give them land, funding, and intelligence information. This means for all intents and purposes that the terrorists are a government organization.

We are a compassionate people, and do not wish to spill muslim blood indiscriminantly as many middle eastern politicians may spout. The notion that we may go in and start nuking innocent Afghanis is ridiculous. Americans have been feeding them and offering them financial aid for quite a long time.

We were also the ones that trained the Afghani people to fight against the Russians. We were the reason the Russians were driven out. Unfortunately, the organization that we trained decided to turn on us. This became the Taleban.

The Taleban has been opressive to its people. Many are dying due to disease and starvation even though our food stores and medical assistance are being sent to them. This is a cruel militarist dictatorship under the guise of fundamentalism. They are hated by almost every country in the middle east, except by Pakistan itself.

All we are working to do is destroy the terrorists themselves, and those responsible for them being there in the first place. This includes the Taleban.

Will anyone be upset by their dissapearance? Many Pakistani's might. However, many countries, even Iran have stated that they would like to see these people dead. The only fear of the leaders of these countries is that we cannot grasp, as evil politically stupid westerners, the difference between muslim factions. To them we are all anti-muslim. So they immediately assume that we will go around killing innocent people. This is completely ridiculous on many levels.

Americans have been bred with a large dose of tolerance to differences in people.. religiously, politically, and physically. We have to look through everyone elses eyes all the time and see their point of view. We are the melting pot of the planet. Everyone comes here and shares their view. We are open and generally respect everyone else in the world.

Middle eastern countries are quite the opposite. They rarely respect any other nation because in their eyes everyone else is wrong. The further from their ideals you get, the more stupid you are and the more hated you are. This is the curse of the closed society. But we are tolerant of this. We do indeed respect other cultures.

We do suggest what we think are better ways economically and politically from time to time in a gesture of help though. The Saudi's have embraced this and are prospering like never before. However, many countries because of their intolerance of other cultures view this as interference on our part. They end up saying we are the big satan for trying to erode their culture and then launch terrorist attacks.. because they cannot do so militarily. This even happens sometimes when we are asked by these nations for help.

There can be no world peace with such intolerant nations existing. Culture clashes are inevitable and frequent with this mentality. The United States wants nothing more than a peaceful planet. We believe that there are only three ways that this can happen. The first two are not an option. The first is a complete eradication of human life on earth. The second is a complete worldwide military dictatorship similar to the system in the book 1984, which was the goal of the USSR.

The last, which we believe the best option is to remove the radical intolerant psychopaths and preach liberty, capitalism, education, and tolerance. This is the only way to ensure a happy people  who do not have to fear religious persecution, starvation, poverty, and entertain a great degree of power over their own destiny.

This country has existed for little more than 200 years and it is already the great global superpower. We rebuilt Japan and Germany, and built them to the economic giants they are today. They quite likely have more today than they would have if we had allowed them to take over the planet. We have enjoyed prosperity and peace for so long that it was horrifying to see this tragedy happen. But our power will not be used to destroy the potential for more world peace and prosperity.

No, we will not run out and kill every innocent Afghani we see. We will not nuke Iran just because it is a muslim state. We will help the Afghani freedom fighters to destroy the Taleban, and work with them to make their country a good place to live. In this way we will conquer our foes. Not through murder and more injustice, but peace and prosperity. We will show the muslim world that what they have been fighting is themselves. Not the big satan, but the bringer of peace and plenty.

[Padre_Matthias]

I read a very thoughtful article stating that Bin Ladin must be brought to justice and the Taliban overthrown, and that the process is likely to be very bloody for both sides.  

It also concluded that the only way to prevent creating a whole new generation of bin laden lite is for a "Marshall Plan' for the mideast (and I would extend to teh rest of the world).  America has a bad image there, for good reason, as we tend to turn a blind eye to sometimes-excessive Isreali security measures.  Our own acts of 'retaliation' have sometimes been worse than the actions we retaliate against when measured objectively.

That's a extraordinary claim, so it needs backing.  Remember the embassy bombings?  Our retaliation was to launch cruise missles at several training camps in afghanistan, as well as blowing up a pharmecutical plant in Sudan (which had expelled Bin Ladin years earlier) that we claimed was making chemical weapons.

The cruise missles not only failed to hit bin ladin but also missed horrendously in some cases (one hit in Pakistan).  The chemical weapons plant rubble was inspected by experts and journalists worldwide, and no one has found evidence of it being anything other than what it claimed to be.  More (completely innocent) sudanis died in that attack than americans in the embassies.  If you factor in those who died to lack of medical supplies in a country that already had a critical shortage the US attack was the worse of the two.  And it accomplished nothing, as Bin Ladin actually got stronger as many moderate Arabs and other Muslims reacted with outrage, enlarging his potential recruit pool.

Back to the thoughtful article: a bomb-them-to-the-stone-age fix will only escalate the violence.  Otherwise, Isreal would have absolutlely no terrorist problem since they routinely target terrorist leaders, hideouts etc, even at the expense of civilians on occasion.    We need to bring Bin Ladin to Justice, and we PROBABLY need to depose the Taliban.  But we need to prove with dramatic gestures to the Islamic world that our greivances are not with the people of these countries, but with the governments/leaders that attack us.  By this I don't mean throwing money at them- if it gets swallowed by the government, the average peasant never sees it, and never grasps where it comes from.  I mean getting engineers in to build irrigation systems and wells, doctors in for health care (under the Taliban there is absolutely no health care for women, as they are banned from seeing male doctors and they are also banned from BEING doctors).  

In short, we need to Wage Peace.

I hope and pray that these tragedies will cause the U.S. to take a good hard look at its self, and raise the issue of whether a human rights based foreign policy is a better option for the U.S. than financing terrorists (such as Bin Ladin and the Taliban) for short-term gains.

However, that is unlikely.  The U.S. media is marching to war, and when they get going on that road they usually see it through (the media effectively started teh Spanish-American war on the basis of rumor).  Serious introspection has been shouted down by fundamentalist nationalism, which is just as horrible as fundamentalist anything else.  If you are not crying "Nuke Tehran" (even though Iran is offering us unprecedented support), or "Bomb them into the stone age" your 'patriotism' is considered in doubt.

I'm repeatedly reminded of a line from, of all things, a sci-fi TV show, babylon 5
"Weep for the future."

May God help us, and show us that we are all each other's victims.

[bhar]

The Middle East is a vibrantly peaceful land, where everyone loves each other, respects the countries that surround it, and conducts trade and commerce in a capitalistic and democratic way.  The poor are assisted by excellent social programs, and crime is kept to a bare minimum because of the rising prosperity.  They must not be destabilized by military action.

Yeah.  And pigs fly in a cold hell.  Truth is, the Middle East is unstable NOW.  We aren't going to burn any major bridges by getting rid of a government that should have gone, and would have gone, a long time ago if it weren't for some bad decisions made by Pakistan and America.  They killed thousands of our citizens.  And the ignorant may say that only more Americans would die if we retaliated, but retaliation is not what we are going for.  We are not trying to "punish" the terrorists.  There is no way that "punishing" them would work, as their greatest honor is to die.  But, they are fast developing biological and chemical weapons and the means to get them to America.  Which would you rather see:

INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN--
50 American Troops dead
500 Afghani civilians dead
2000+ Terrorists/Taliban military dead

BIOLOGICAL ATTACK (smallpox, ebola, anthrax)--
18,000,000 American civilians dead
2 terrorists dead.

No!  I am not being rhetorical, answer the question!  Which one would you rather see?  Seriously!

[Mike]

Three letters.
D-U-H
Invade and get it over with.  We need to eradicate terrorism, and we need to do it NOW.

[Cyanide Baron]

I was horrified when I first heard, but it was so, so much worse on TV. Especially the people jumping out the windows.
Channel Nine was showing CNN reports, and a home video camera tracked someone all the way down from the 93rd floor . I can't understand how those Palestinians can be dancing in the streets, after the huge loss of life. That was terrible.

My deepest sympathy goes to the victims family and friends.

In the modified words of the great Gough Whitlam-
"God save the Queen, because nothing will save Bin Ladin."

[bhar]

And there are peace rallies at major universities.  How?  Why?  6,736 people are either missing or dead.  Do they want to just ignore that?  Let Saddam and bin Laden build up bio and nuclear weapons?  The anti-globalism people just shifted their attention to anti-war.  I think this might just be the last straw of public opinion for those folks.

[Padre_Matthias]

Those aren't the options

Any sustained, serious military effort to reach bin ladin and or depose the Taliban will most likely cost the United States casualties in the thousands.  Ground troops WILL be necessary, as air/missle strikes have had no effect in the past, and Afghanistan is the sort of place that makes Generals wake up screaming in the night.  It's rugged hills, burning heat, and well-trained, well equipped guerrilla forces (who were armed by the C.I.A) everywhere.

Whats worse, we would be NO SAFER from terrorist attacks do to the nature of terrorism.  In fact we would probably be worse off, dealing with near-constant small-scale terrorist bombings, because we would have made even more enemies, without changing their ability to hurt us.

So do I want thousands of U.S. young men (possibly myself- they could reinstitute the draft) dying in an unwinnable war, tens of thousands of civilian casualties, and terrorism as an ordinary fact of life for the next generation of Americans, who are no safer than they were to start with from nuclear/biological/chemical weapons? No.

I have no illusions about the MidEast.  But its not a simple question of having to do one of two things 1)Kill everyone 2) Just let them kill us.

This sort of knee-jerk oversimplification of any alternatives is absolutely typical of whats been going on in America, and I don't blame you for it.  My advice is, for the next several weeks, avoid American news sources, as they present a very militant, oversimplified explanation of events.  I would suggest the BBC website, which is informative and has actually considered wether a massive military response will really solve things.

The truth is, at this point, a military solution is inevitible.  However, the US must recognize the role it played in creating the climate that nutured these terrorists, and MUST, if it is to survive with its traditional liberties intact, adapt its foreign policy to keep situations from escalating to this point.  This will require as much steel as any other ingredient, and will most likely be more difficult to accomplish, but the security it will bring will last longer.

A note:  Before anyone tries to misconstrue what I am saying, let me say this:

I AM NOT SAYING THE U.S. IS TO BLAME, OR THAT WE DESERVED THE ATTACKS

I cannot emphasize this point enough:  A purely military solution, backed up with because-we-say-so diplomacy, will NOT make us any safer.

[Padre_Matthias]

And there are peace rallies at major universities.  How?  Why?  6,736 people are either missing or dead.  Do they want to just ignore that?  Let Saddam and bin Laden build up bio and nuclear weapons?  The anti-globalism people just shifted their attention to anti-war.  I think this might just be the last straw of public opinion for those folks.

Yeah, how dare they pray that no one else has to die, or that they not be dragged into a violent confrontation with the entire muslim world?  How dare they defend the rights of the Talibans old victims, who weren't even Americans? Didn't they watch CNN!?  Muslims don't count as people- the guest analyst said so. Don't they know what they're supposed to think?

[Mike]

I wish that no one else *would* have to die, but it has to happen.  We were attacked.  We need to fight back, or we may be attacked again.  America needs to destroy all of the major terrorist backers, and by that I mean people and organizations, not countries, or we will never have our peace back.  It takes hundreds of small scale bombings to put even the smallest dent in the sheer number of lives taken in Tuesday's tragedy.  I say, we take terrorism back to the stone age.  Surgical strikes on all major known terrorist bases WITH infantry.  If we reduce them to doing strikes without funding, there is little more for them to do but throw rocks at us.  There seems to be no other way...

[bhar]

So what do you suggest?  Letting them be?

[bhar]

Letting them be provides no solutions.  It will only get worse.  At least, with action, we have a chance to change something.  This did not happen in your country (whatever that may be--America or not).  This happened in America.  You did not die in that blast.  You can't ignore that.  

You say CNN is wrong and biased.  America has a free press.  Ignoring the truth is the easiest way to keep flawed opinions.

Anyway, thousands of people would not die in a well-constructed invasion.  If we did it right, we would put a major damper on terrorism.  You obviously wish for terrorism to continue, and your suggestion that I don't consider Muslims people is sickening.

[Padre_Matthias]

I think you're operating under some widely-held faulty presuppositions, as was I for a while, so let me try to make a few points:

You can't bomb, catch, or kill terrorism, because it's not a physical thing.  There is no grand terrorist command center to destroy that wil take out their ability to respond.  It's not like the two other big evil -isms we've faced, because those had supports to knock down.  Fascism had hitler, and it withered away after he died.  Communism had the Soviet Union, and it's not now an active threat (though still straggling around).  

We are actually in agreement on one thing- the US must get Bin Laden, even if it does mean military response, and unfortunately civilian losses.  Doing so will lesson their ability to actively harm us for some time.  But it will not cure the disease, just keep the symptoms at bay for a while.  We need a fundamental re-evaluation of how we aproach the world.  America often takes a cavalier attitude towards international law & agreements (reference the disastrous "Desert Fox" strikes, which we had to excercise our veto to stop an offical investigation by the UN into).  We have always approached the third world, especially the middle east and africa, with a secure detachment, and use the phrase 'In America's Intrests to _____" as a moral super-solvant.  If it benefits America, it's right.  We could get away with it when we were safely isolated waaaay over in North America, and confient our armies could always bail us out.  But distance, obviously, is no longer a protection- nor, I maintain, is military might.

To be honest, I don't know how we can avoid getting ourselves into a situation like Isreal is in, living under the perpetual fear of an ever-escalating cycle of bombing-reprisal that will drown the world in blood.  These sorts of things keep me up all night.  I am petrified, but it's not the terrorists I'm afraid of.

[bhar]

The only reason Isreal has been in this endless cycle is because the UN has kept them on a string for the last 50 years.  They haven't been able to get the perpetrators.

There is a major difference between not having a home country and not being physical.  Terrorism is physical.  Saying that it is not is implying that terrorism is mental, and we all have a little bit of of terrorist in us.  Terrorism just does not have a home country, and we have not paid it much heed the last 10 years.  That, hopefully, will change.  I am NOT wanting to destroy the Middle east, but to modernize and eliminate the undesirable elements.  First of all, we have to root out terrorism in the developed world.  Once they have few connections in America, they cannot hurt us very badly.  After that, we should clean up a few rogue states.  Namely, Afghanistan.  A paradrop outside of Kabul with air support would easily overthrow the Taliban with limited civilian and American casualties.  

We can't stop there.  We have to bring the Middle east up to the developed world's level, giving them aid and essentially starting a new Marshall Plan.  We have to realize that the reason the people of the Middle east dislike us is because of jealousy.  If we brought them up to our level with aid and a capitalist government, most jealousy would be absolved.  After all, they seek refuge in religion.  People almost always seek refuge in religion when oppressed.  They would disengage themselves from their fundamentalist ways if they had better things to base their life on.