Taxes!!

[skot]

i just thought of this in another thread, but why cant we charge the Tropicans taxes?  EVERYTHING gets built out of the state treasury, but we're expected to run the government like a business (operating purely on profits).  what gives?

we could have tax brackets or a flat tax or tax certain industries (tourism, hotels, etc.), sales tax on entertainment.  we cant even charge for college education or food - dog, it's a wonder we succeed at all.  that's it! i'm building more prisons, my Tropicans better not make a peep!


-skot

[Kendahlj]

I agree that it seems pretty crazy that the little b*stards get all their food for free.  If they go to a farm or go to a market and pick up a meal they should have to pay for it.  It's a wonder they have the audacity to complain about anything -- college, heath care, religion, food; it's all free on the island.  

What a great place to live!!!!

[skot]

that's what i'm saying!!  the government operates like a hardcore capitalist company, but the application of the government is very socialist.  how many other govts have to operate businesses and make profit in order to run?

we need taxes!!  it would open up so many venues (read initial post in this thread), so many new ways to manipulate people, factions, and industry.  it could become a point of contention for elections - ahh, the possibilities ...


-skot

[El_Camino]

But taxation without representation is a recipe for disaster.  Maybe we could set up a legislative branch to speak for the people.  (of course you could "influence" potential candidates to see things your way).  And they in turn could pork barrel certain funds to help build up the infrastructure in their particular district on the island.... hmmmmmmm.  Naah!  That could never happen in real life.

[skot]

i like it El Camino, but adding that feature would be very difficult (a legislature).  their representation is in their factions.  at a bare minimum, we should be able to set a tax percentage that we would get off all income (personal, industry), etc.  this could be raised or lowered depending on repression, oppression, or obsession, and this would in turn effect the populace.  i still like the idea (though more complex) of varying taxations - personal income, tourism, manufactured export goods, even down to the individual business (sales or service tax), etc.

-skot

[El_Camino]

But if the faction leaders could be used to simulate legislative power, wouldn't more of them be named Kennedy?

And wouldn't more of them get caught having extra-marital affairs on a tourist yachts with young American tourists?... hmmm... maybe I need more reporters.

[Esteban]

I agree it would be fun to throw in the tax variable.  One of the Economic edicts is "Tax Cut," so the game does have some level of assumed taxation.  In the last months before a close election, the Tax Cut edict makes El Presidente look a whole lot better than the upstart lady from the Cannery or the priest to whom God has whispered a plan for Tropico...

[SSG_Troyer]

Game term implications, people.  Joe Teamster makes p5 a year (default) and has to pay p1 to live in a tenement.  20% tax would be another p1 to El Presidente.  Now you have to lower your bar and restaurant to p3 or Joe can never Par-tay.  Now, bars make less or even lose, and your net income is the same or less.  Lower your tax rate to < 20%, you'd round the result down, and your lower-incomites would be taxed p0 anyway.

Yes, interesting choices may have to be made.  Raise Joe's salary?  Fine, but then you're just giving that p1 back.  Lower Joe's rent?  Well, some do that, anyway.  Happier housing, but less money.  Treasury sees a net wash.  Lower Joe's taxes to nada?  At least the rich will still have to pay....Oh, yeah.  How dictatorial of you.  Having your palace guards pay p1 (at 15%) and doctors pay p3 while Joe pays 0.

It was probably a thought-out, intensely discussed decision at PopTop.  It just wasn't worth it.

MWT

[skot]

you bring up very good points SSG_Troyer, but there has also been discussion on Tropico's rather unusual timeline - 2 years to walk across the island??  i think that players might be willing to assume the realism of a more accurate timeline.  i'm not saying exact representation of realtime, but there has to be something in between realtime and Tropico time.  the reason i bring this up is because i think the pay scales are done the way they are because of the timeline (a doctor making 20 pesos a year? - not very realistic, but done for the simplicity of the game).  if the timeline were more realistic, pay could be more realistic, then we could throw in taxes.  i am not saying that adding taxes would be a cookie-cutter thing, but it would have been interesting nonetheless.


-skot

[SSG_Troyer]

So you're saying taxes should be applied as a wet blanket over the economy?  Take the total salaries of everybody.  Let's see....30 people start, only 1 soldier making p10, rest at p5, that's p97/year in national income.  You saying, take 20% of that (rounded down = p19) and add it into the national treasury, along with corresponding adjustments to liberty and overall happiness.  Would p19/year be worth p_ssing everyone off that much?

MWT

[skot]

no, i mentioned different kind of taxes - personal income, industry, tourism.  i just think it's odd that everything is free/govt-funded, yet we dont get to collect taxes.  in the context you present it, it is ludicrous, because you wouldnt be able to collect enough taxes to fund anything, but i think it would be interesting, and sometimes, when i am feeling particularly dictatorial, i would levy those taxes (even it meant collecting no more than 20 pesos a year) just to piss them off.  we have already established that the basis on which taxes would lie is skewed (timeline, payment, etc.), and that would have to be modifed for taxes and taxing options to work, so i am not holding my breath.  it just occurred to me recently that so much is free on Tropico, so that would translate to more net money on the part of the Tropicans.  i also realize that govts dont make money off direct sales in bars, hotels, etc., so in a way, taxes are indirectly represented.


-skot

[BananaBaron]

If the game is not charging taxes, then where is the tax money for the tax refund come from in the edicts?

I know that the refund swayed an election big timke in my favor.  Maybe, without us knowing it, taxes are a part of rent and entertainment fees.

Taxes?  We nose need no steenking taxes!

[skot]

the money for the tax cut just comes right out of the treasury.  IMO, it is called a tax cut as a matter of convenience.  and yes, it would seem that taxes are symbolically represented by the profits accrued by the govt.



-skot

[killer]

When governments tax industries they are taxing the company.  The owner of this company ends up paying the tax (basically).  

When a government owns the industry, and you tax it, then you are paying yourself.

You can't tax a gold mine because YOU own it, you would be paying $20 then receiving $20.  It wouldn't get anywhere.

[5strong]

About the salary, I believe the pay was every month not every year.  I may be wrong however.

[SSG_Troyer]

Hokay, fine.  Makes your initial annual income tax revenue for a population of 30 a whopping p208.

Skot's right.  The entire economic abstract would have to be overhauled to include viable taxation.  It might be cool if done right, but it would take a major rewrite.

MWT

[Kekkonen]

I always thought the salary you see is the salary after taxes. The game simply abstracts the taxman away -- instead of you pay, you get part back and Joe Teamster gets to keep 5 pesos, you just pay Joe his 5 pesos.

[Cor]

Hi folks, first post. Couldn't resist participating in this thread. A couple of the previous posters are close but a major feature of this game seems to have been missed. Since the State pays all the salaries and receives all the profits in this game, taxes are completely superfluous. If you want to tax income, simply pay the worker less. The State retains the difference in its treasury-why bother taxing? Since the State receives all profits from industry, hotels, bars etc., what is the point in taxing those profits? Where are those taxes going to end up? Even taxing transactions (ie a sales tax) doesn't make any sense since all sales proceeds also go to the State. I think the designers made the right decision here in leaving taxes out-although the tax cut edict is a bit puzzling.

[Dr._Cruel]

Really - what's the difference between a state that owns your home and mandates a certain level of upkeep for its property, and another that allows private ownership but maintains special zoning laws that ensure a certain maintenance level, charge taxes on property values, and retains the right of eminent domain?

I LOVE this game! Finally, someone who understands...

[skot]

yes, all of these are great points, and under the current model, you are right, Cor, taxing would be a waste, though i still think that as a political instrument, taxation could still have some worth.  but, dammit, i just get so sick of those Tropicans constantly protesting the first time a little something doesnt go there way even though they get free housing (some), free schooling, free food, free medicine ....

excuse me a moment while i buy some shiny new nightsticks for my police officers.


-skot

[Mercator]

Just remember the motto:

A Gun in Each Hand Makes Them Succumb to The Man

[Powerslave]

Yeah wouldn't it be great if the people could start their own companies so that we could tax them. Let them have an extra skill called entrepreneur or something. Kinda boring having no compatition.

Yes I know this will never happen still.....

[skot]

if the game already supports the placement of a base from the USA or USSR with an annual "rental" fee, then why cant companies from the USA or USSR come to Tropico and build factories or retail outlets?  we could tax them, and i would love to have some foreign-imported Director or something wandering around my island (maybe a slightly different version of the banker or bureaucrat), paying to live in an expensive luxury house, gambling at my baccarat casino - kind of like permanent tourists.


-skot

[Tim_Horton]

I wondered at first why there is an edict called "Tax Cut" when you can't even tax the Tropicans.  But then I realized that you have complete control over the economy - you take all the money and dole it out as you see fit.

This is in effect the same as overly high taxes in a capitalist country.  For example, look at Canada's system, where the average taxpayer works until July 1 for the government.  The government takes way more money than they need for basic services, and doles the extra out as they see fit, usually to friends, supporters or anyone with a really bad business idea (subsidies, grants, loans, pork barreling, etc.).  When Canadians become upset at the high taxes, they cancel future tax increases, call it a "tax cut" and no one's the wiser.  "Tax me, I'm Canadian."

Sorry I got off track a little.  

[Eddy]

I wish they had bazaars with all sorts of goodies there and maybe the potential to have cottage industries.  It should come as no surprise to those who have read my Jeffersonian rants that I am a strong proponent of small business and private industry and in these countries, you will often have this occurring.

I remember reading an article about the World Bank which described micro-loans (loans to third world people that are typically under 500 dollars) and it said most of the people using them are women who will sell small items either door to door or at a marketplace.  The smallest loan they approved was for one dollar.  It was a Pakistani woman who wished to buy plastic bangles to sell door to door.  

A note about these loans:  The people have a higher repayment rate than Americans do.  Take that for what its worth, but I'd say its because they truly appreciate the opportunity given.