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mdlake
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« on: 03/21/01 at 01:54 PM »

An earlier thread explored how we intended to rule our islands, or rather, which aspect we most looked forward to promoting: tanks, money, tourism, whatever.  Now I'd like to see why you intend to rule that way.  If you like tanks, why do you want to make them the linchpin of your island?  If you want a population of 500 UCFTs, why do…oh.  Never mind.

Herewith is the set of principles by which I intend to rule Santa Bañana.  Similarities to Plato, Machiavelli and Orwell are not coincidental.  Reading them, I have to wonder whether some of your tank-infested police states would really be all that bad.
----------------------------------
I shall not cater to the demands of my citizens; they shall cater to mine.
My citizens are as unimportant as ants in an ant farm or pixels on a computer screen.  I shall treat them as fungible goods to attain my ends.  And my end shall be power.

The object of power is power.
My highest priority shall be to maintain the security of my regime; my second priority shall be to increase its extent.  Considerations such as Swiss bank accounts, esthetics, game score, and the happiness of my people are inconsequential excepting insofar as they enhance my power.  Foreign states are welcome to full relations with Santa Bañana, but Santa Bañana shall remain wholly sovereign.

He who makes the decisions has the power.
I shall delegate nothing.  I shall rely on no advisor.  Since my citizens will act in their own interest, and not necessarily in mine, I shall minimize the independence of my citizenry.

I shall work with the system, not against it.
Though I may have a taste for propaganda and a distatste for armed force, I shall adopt whichever works best.  I shall not improve my citizens' lives simply for the sake of benevolence; neither shall I persecute them to entertain petty egotism.  I shall not play favorites with factions in Santa Bañana, excepting insofar as one faction may promote my power more readily than another might.  I shall not pursue short-term goals which do not contribute to my long-term power.  The end justifies the means.

Business before pleasure.
Life and lifestyles on Santa Bañana will be self-sustaining.  I shall build necessary infrastructure before pursuing glitzy civic improvements.
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« Reply #1 on: 03/21/01 at 10:27 PM »

Mike this is excellent.  Obviously, you are a student of Macchiavelli.

In Sim City 3000, I learned the hard way that if you give in to the demands of your citizens, you will soon end up broke.  Every police station, fire station, train station, library, school, etc. is a drain on the budget.  Put off these buildings to the last possible moment.  Use your money to build profit centers, i.e. residential, commercial, and industrial zones.  Also, build roads, powerlines, pipelines etc. to the border so you can sell them excess power, water etc.  In this way you can keep your books in the black.

In Tropico, the priority should be on farms, mines, logging camps, etc.  Anything that makes money fast and doesn't cost a lot to build.  Don't be in a rush to build housing because shanties cost nothing to you and your Tropicans can make do for a while.

Build a small church but hire only one priest at first.  Religion is the "opiate of the masses" but in Tropico it costs money so don't go overboard.  Bribe your priest to praise you in his sermons.

Build a dock so you can sell your raw goods to the outside world.  Make sure to have enough teamsters on hand to get the goods to the dock.  Teamsters and dockworkers are potential trouble makers so don't let them get out of hand.

Don't be in a hurry to educate your people.  Educated people make more demands and are harder to control.

Build soldiers to scare your people into submission.  Always make sure the soldiers have enough to eat and give them better houses than the others. Build a whorehouse next door to the barracks to keep the soldiers happy while they're off duty.

Keep plenty of soldiers near the docks to keep the dockworkers in line.  Keep lots of soldiers around your palace in case of rebellion.  Soldiers should also patrol farms to keep rebels from picking off farmers.

Make a deal with the USSR to send you money.  The USSR will be glad to make a deal with you and won't make demands that you be nice to your people.  Use the money to build a bigger army.

Build a newspaper plant and publish propaganda.  All journalists should be bribed regularly.  Journalists who don't go along should be dealt with.

Pay your people the lowest wages you can get away with.  It doesn't pay to be over-generous.  Besides, people without money can't cause as much trouble as people who do have money.

The important thing to remember is that it is irrelevant whether your people are happy so long as you stay in power.  It is cheaper to keep them scared then to make them happy.
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« Reply #2 on: 03/22/01 at 09:29 AM »

I am not worthy!  I am not worthy!

Ok, I was going to go with the velvet glove approach.  I wanted to make a tropical paradise where everyone loves me, the people are fat and happy, and the bikinis are optional.  But I must admit the idea of power makes me yearn for more than just a government job sorting paper clips.

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« Reply #3 on: 03/22/01 at 06:49 PM »

Ah, but what is power?  True power does not come from fear, which is the most transitory of human emotions.  A populace with nothing to lose is the most dangerous force in history, and it cannot be stopped.  The people will not be afraid forever.  Even the cowardly will rally when they see defiance is possible.  Then it will not matter if you murder the leaders.

Seek not power over the people, but power WITH the people.  Do not be slavish to what is popular.  But neither should you seek to break the people, but show to them your aims, and in the end keep your own council, and seek Gods.
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Go in peace
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"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
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« Reply #4 on: 03/22/01 at 09:21 PM »

Padre, your idealism is inspiring but I have to disagree with you.  Castro has stayed in power for over 40 years by keeping his people in fear.  There are very few Latin American leaders who have held power this long.
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« Reply #5 on: 03/22/01 at 10:51 PM »

Ah but look at Poland.  Even with all the terror of the Soviet Union's power behind them, the communist government was helpless before the Solidarity, a non-violent union-and-faith based movement.  It swept them away like a tidal wave.

Or Milosovic.  Nato embargos, airstrikes and intervention in Kosovo and Bosnia did virtually nothing to loosen his grip on the nation.  He kept people in line through intimidation, and threats, wiped out entire populations who disagreed with him.  He was a micro-hitler.  What brought him down?  He decided to have a show election- and so many people voted an emphatic, defiant 'NO!' that he could no longer maintain the illusion that he really could stop them.  The people realized that the strength lay in THEM, and always had.  They took to the streets, and the country- even those who were afraid to oppose Milosevic or had belived resistance doomed- rallied, and he suddenly had no allies, as the army realized it was in an unwinable position and refused to fight the insurgant populace.  Without allies he was forced to resign, going out with a proverbial whimper.

Long-reigning dictatorships like Cuba and the USSR survive by either convincing the people that they are better off, by comparing themselves to previous authoritarian regimes like the Czar and Batista, making some improvement in the quality of their lives, or managing to mis-direct unrest at some convinient scapegoat, often a foreign enemy.

A good example is the erstwhile Iraqui Saddam Hussein.  When Hussein first took power, he did genuinely improve the quality of life of many peasents.  He nationalized the Oil companies, kicking the hated americans and british who were virtually pillaging the nations resorces for hefty bribes to the ruling class.  He used the profits for getting electricity into the countryside, irrigation, some improvements in health care, etc.  Of course, these genuine improvements were destroyed in the two wars he started for little more reason than to prop-up his own ego, the Iran-Iraq war and the gulf war.  But the goodwill he earned, and his Clinton-esque ability to redirct blame for his own actions to his enemies leads to his genuine popularity.

does that make sense?  it's very late...
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"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
des
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« Reply #6 on: 03/23/01 at 12:47 AM »

I think just a constant stream of propaganda is the way to go.  The TV, the radio, the newspaper, everything should be spewing out propaganda 24 hours a day.

It works.  Just look at the countries you live in.

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Serpentis
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« Reply #7 on: 03/23/01 at 06:11 AM »

Militairy power!!

I will force the people to work for me in the gold mines. People who can't work will be forced to go to an other side of the island. Their they will executed.
The tourists can only visit my capitol and other attractions.

I don't use hospitals. My people will die when they are 50 years old. So that I don't have to spend on older people who can't earn some money.

on one part of my island I will make nuclair weapons!!
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mdlake
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« Reply #8 on: 03/23/01 at 07:30 AM »

Wait!  Before this thread degenerates into "X is kewl," let me try to wrench it back on track.  There are at least three proponents of "kinder, gentler" government here, including Teremei from two threads over on the list.  Please elaborate, folks: why?  Do you project your natural desire to help your fellow man as far as pixelated people?  Do you dismiss their happiness but crave the ego boost of their adulation?  Or do you just consider running a just government the more interesting challenge?  My question could apply to games generally, not to Tropico alone.

Padre (and des), bear in mind I'm asking my question in terms of Tropico the game, not principles for governing a real island.  Even granting that PopTop is crammed with genius, they won't get a perfect simulation of real third-world behavior.  (There's plenty of room for disagreement over how a "perfect" simulation would behave, if nothing else.)  Setting aside your persona adopted for the newsgroup, do you really intend to build a theocracy?  And, if churches don't work as you expect, will you switch to something else with more desirable mechanics, or stick with the theme because it's cool?

That goes for the rest of you: mechanics or style?  We posture a lot on this forum.  It's all well and good to laugh as you insist you'll execute every other citizen, but we know that's not going to fly very long.  You could, of course, continue shooting right up to the moment they smash your gates down, and even have fun doing it.  You could ruin your economy maxing out your bikini quotient.  You could build a glorious paradise, at the expense of your personal bank account.  When push comes to shove, will you play to win (whatever that means), or sacrifice minimaxing to your pet style?  Describe why you'll adopt the posture you realistically expect to use running your island.
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« Reply #9 on: 03/23/01 at 09:24 AM »

Well, to be serious, I enjoy making my games run like clockwork.  My goal in games like Simcity 3000 or Pharaoh is to have everything balanced so well that I can walk away from the computer, go to bed, and when I return in the morning, everything is still running with no problems encountered.  It's difficult, but that is the challenge.

I really don't care for the conflict and militaristic side of things and generally prefer peaceful builder sandbox modes.  Tropico sounds like it will be very challenging in the area of setting things to be peaceful and I look forward to it.

Now for the less serious side.

I will make all of my people toil in the fields while I live in sheer decadence that would make Roman emperors sick with envy.  I will have my people wear heavy chains and shackles just because I can.  The tourists will be treated as my personal harem.  It's good to be the king.
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« Reply #10 on: 03/23/01 at 09:36 AM »

I consider creating a compassionate government in the game as the more interesting challenge, trying to keep things as peaceful and de-militarized as possible.  Trying to keep the discontented happy enough that they don't take up arms, finding comprimise between die-hard extremes, these are challenging enough to give one a feeling of satisfaction when successfully done.
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"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
robbo
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« Reply #11 on: 03/23/01 at 12:42 PM »

In school i have been studying the Cuban Missile Crisis and bits on Cuba, and i kinda think that is what i want one of my islands to be based on.
I shall have several islands (save files).

Love-dovy one: where the island is bankrupt and must be supported by HUGE monetary influxes from my sponsor.

Normal: play as i want. Hard on some, nice on others, waiting till it is absolutely necessary to do something, keeping the coffers filled, KEEPING MY COFFERS FILLED, and of couse HUGE monetary influxes from my sponsor.
I don't need it but how will they know.
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Hard Ass: Everybody on this island TOES THE LINE. Everyone else is dead  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Also my island will be industrious, not so touristy. Sure Pamela and ......ughh....my arm is fighting to keep my hand off the keyboard.........BERTHA......ohhh can come (and their counterparts) and the place will look fine and dandy, but it shall not be my main prority (unless the goal is too have tourism0

okay i've mumbled on for far too long
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« Reply #12 on: 03/23/01 at 02:49 PM »

Having read far too much about third world dictators, I must confess that force of arms will play a frequent role in maintaining my power however...

I desire growth for my nation (and as a consequence for my Tropicans), as a degree of progress will satisfy the masses. But oh no, not too fast, as a wealthy, educated group they are more dangerous that a population with mimimal standards with are slowly improving.

The army will be there to prod when needed, the church to bless when desired. So long as my rule is long I think I will use whatever power, or side with whichever factions suits the purpose.

Keep the aim in sight at all times, lengthy rule, everything else must take second place.
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« Reply #13 on: 03/23/01 at 03:00 PM »

I'll be totally militarizing my island.  I shall centralize my grip on power around the palace, placing the majority of the military buildings nearby, as well as the Propoganda media.  I can't let the rebels seize a broadcasting station and incite a revolution now can I?  Its my opinion that most people will have Rebels almost from the start.  I don't think I will be thatm uch of a problem protecting the palace.  Its the other centers of power that I worry about.  
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« Reply #14 on: 03/23/01 at 05:24 PM »

I've decided to run my government as a strong, centralized, military-backed one, but not insanely so.  Basically my goal is to stay in power (obviously).  To do this, I will try to prevent rebellion.  Rebellion will either destroy my island's military, government, economy , or political structure.  If the farmers rebel, your military won't last long with no food.  It's not like AoE where you can just divert the laborers to farmers, the people basically choose what to work at.  So with farmers gone, or any money making business (to pay for the military equipment), your government can't last long.  My plan to prevent rebellion is, to first of all, set up a large system of propaganda and use the incredible information gathering capabilities to make sure no one is getting too upset.  If people begin to get upset, I will try to please them (up to a certian point).  Then I will jail them, declare them a heretic, or assassinate them.  This is a last resort because of the anti-government sentiments those actions cause, especially to family or fellow faction members.  I will also try to build a core loyal population, perhaps using the faction system, so if a rebellion does come, I will still have some economic support.
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Brian
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« Reply #15 on: 03/23/01 at 08:06 PM »

I have yet to create a city (sim, egyptian or otherwise) that runs flawlessly, and although that is always my "goal", I'm sure Tropico will be no exception.  That's not a bad thing, because perfection tends to get... shall we say... boring after a while.

My rule of the island will follow a simple plan.  I shall keep my people happy and healthy, while not demanding more of them than can be expected.  The harder they work, the more money the island makes and the more "luxuries" I can afford for them.  My island will start out as poor agricultural workhorse, and money will come in the form of export of the excess raw foods and resources I can gather.  

My goal is a tropical paradise, with plush hotels for the high class tourists and plenty of comfortable housing for my people.  Trees will be replanted, mines will be kept far away from urban centers and the tourists will be kept safe and happy by the ever present police who patrol the island.

And should anybody complain about how things are going, I'll execute them  Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: 03/24/01 at 12:19 AM »

Actually, Mike, I'm going to try different styles to see what works best.  That's the beauty of Tropico.  There's more than one way to win.

After playing the brutal dictator I described above, my next style will be "enlightened democrat". I shall rule to advance the cause of democracy and freedom (as I define it, of course).

I shall attend Harvard, and will come from a silver-spoon background, as all Harvardmen must.  I shall come to power by a free and fair election, supported if necessary, by some of my friends I made at Harvard who joined the U.S. government.

I shall establish good relations with that beacon of democracy, the United States, and accept with sincere gratitude whatever humanitarian aid the Americans bestow to my fledgling democracy.

I shall use the aid money to build housing, schools, and hospitals for my people.  I shall also build hotels, resorts and casinos and invite my American friends to visit me and bring their money.

I shall have a free press, free exercise of religion, and minimal military presence.  I shall hold free elections, and if I lose, I shall bow out of power gracefully.

I will not have any problems from rebels because no one will want to rough it out in the jungle, when they can have a good paying job, plentiful food, and religious satisfaction in my Utopian society.
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des
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« Reply #17 on: 03/24/01 at 06:24 AM »

I really don't think that's much of a Utopia.  A country dependant on the US for so much.

I think a Tropican Utopia would be one with little or no economic divide between the rich and the poor, in need of no foreign aid but still on good terms with both Russia and the US, if possible (if only to keep the Tropican ships afloat.)  It would have a thriving economy, totally unreliant on tourism.  Ruled by a Tropican, educated in a Tropican University, by Tropican proffesors.

Does anyone plan to try this sort of thing?  The real utopia?  Muh?  I can see the heavy attraction of the police state, but still.

Optional End Note - Read if you've got absolutely nothing else to do or you want to post an angry reply
Is it just me or are all gamers conservatives who love their country and capitalism, as well as harbouring deep hatred and fear of anything communistic?  And finally, is communistic a word?
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mdlake
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« Reply #18 on: 03/24/01 at 09:42 AM »

I probably will gravitate towards a nice, peaceful, wealthy state as the game progresses.  There must be perks for managing high levels of wealth, education, and security which will make the dictator more secure in the long run.  I'm confident I can manage the balancing act with practice, as long as I have a pause button.  Don't suppose you can call it utopia, though; since I have more faith in my own ability to manage the system than in my citizens', Santa Bañana will have a rigidly centralized economy.  In that sense, it could be called "communistic," though I won't be waving any red flags.

I don't know whether I find spreading the wealth or creation of an elite more emotionally appealing.  I'll probably just play along and magnify whichever I get.

I don't think players are generally conservative--at least not my circle of gaming buddies!  Patriots, possibly, but no more so than the general public.  Rather, I think you're just seeing a predisposition to an us-versus-them mentality and a life-is-cheap attitude common to games.  "The commies are doing something irritating?  Kill ten of their tank divisions!  They're only 2000 minerals and 500 fuel to replace."  (Whether gamers get these attitudes from playing, or play because they have these attitudes is open to debate.)
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mdlake
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« Reply #19 on: 03/24/01 at 09:45 AM »

While I'm here, thanks guys for reminding me it's possible to play a second game, and use a different approach.  Oh, yeah.  Right.  I knew that, really.
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« Reply #20 on: 03/24/01 at 02:16 PM »

I'll probably trie a couple other styles, like uber-enviornmentalist, and social democracy (in the unenviable position of going against BOTH superpowers).

But my main one will be trying to go for the tropican utopia.

useless fact:  The original, literal meaning of Utopia is "noplace"
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"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
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« Reply #21 on: 03/24/01 at 02:20 PM »

You will not play a religious person?!  Pshaw!  HERETIC!HERETIC! YOU HERETIC!  YOU LIE, lol.
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« Reply #22 on: 03/24/01 at 07:06 PM »

No, no your eminence.  A godly utopia, of course, a reflection of God's kingdom on earth, with a church in every plaza, and a beautiful cathedral or two.

Here, have one of our quality hand-crafted rosaries.

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"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
BeeSting
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Archbishop of Tropico- Relgious Leader of All, including El Presidente!


« Reply #23 on: 03/24/01 at 07:22 PM »

*takes Rosary Bribing*  **ZAP** ahhh god zapped me!
« Last Edit: 12/31/69 at 07:00 PM by 1013846400 » Report to moderator   Logged


"Rise Up and Rebel my Brothers and Sisters, for god calls on you to eliminate the evil Army and remove the Evil El Presidente from Office!"
Padre_Matthias
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« Reply #24 on: 03/24/01 at 07:35 PM »

<stops shuffling feet on the shag carpet>

hehehe
« Last Edit: 12/31/69 at 07:00 PM by 1013846400 » Report to moderator   Logged

"Our problems, both those we experience externally- such as wars, crime, and violence- and those we experience internally- our emotional pain and psychological sufferings- cannot be solved unless we address the underlying neglect.  That is why the great movements of the last hundred years and more- democracy, liberalism, socialism- have all failed to deliver the universal benefits they were supposed to provide, despite many wonderful ideas.  A revolution is called for, certainly.  But not a political, an economic, or even a technical revolution.  We have had enough evperience of these during the past century to know that an external approach will not suffice.  What I propose is a spiritual revolution."
--The Dalai Lama "Ethics for the New Millenium"
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