Isreali Offensive(PP3.1)

[Mike]

...and yet they still have *SOME* lands!  

[Gigo]

Time for Topic change!

[Knight_of_Nee]

what about gypsies? they have been persecuted for almost as long as the jews and they were almost as heavily persecuted during the holocaust

[Comrade Nik]

Its interesting to note that in 1845 there were 12,000 jews in Palestine. By 1914 that number had increased to 85,000. After 1935 jewish immigration increased significantly. In 1935 nearly 62,000 entered Palestine.
In 1947 the ratio was 1,300,000 arabs to 600,000 jews. Thats an increase of 5000%!

There were 800,000 Arabs in the israeli held territories before 1948. Following the israeli occupation of 78% of Arab lands 1948 that number dropped to 170,000. The other 630,000 became refugees in the surrounding Arab countries. The 1948 war produced over 700,000 refugees. About half of them left out of fear. The other half were forced out.

During his time in the knesset arial sharon was one of the most outspoken backers of jewish settlement in Arab territories. Later, as housing minister, he oversaw a major expansion drive of jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza strip. sharon was minister of defense under prime minister menachem begin and spearheaded israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. He was forced to resign a year later following the massacre of thousands by Israeli forces at refugee camps in israeli occupied Lebannon.

The "wailing wall" is one side of the Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (one of the most holy muslim sites) .Hundreds of Archeological expeditions by both jews and Arabs have confirmed that the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (including that wall) was built during the Islamic Age (After 650CE).  Therefore the "wailing wall" cannot be a remnant of Solomans Temple, (the rest of which was destroyed >1000 years ago.)

[Mike]

The "wailing wall" is one side of the Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (one of the most holy muslim sites) .Hundreds of Archeological expeditions by both jews and Arabs have confirmed that the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (including that wall) was built during the Islamic Age (After 650CE).  Therefore the "wailing wall" cannot be a remnant of Solomans Temple, (the rest of which was destroyed >1000 years ago.)

Two things...
a) If you want us to believe it, prove it.
b) How does that matter?

After 1935 jewish immigration increased significantly. In 1935 nearly 62,000 entered Palestine.

Don't you get the feeling that they were running from something?

And if you wish to talk of Arial sharon's atrocities, you must also make mention of those by YASSER ARAFAT...in the interests of fairness.

[el_malo]

Arab population in Palestine was approximately 200,000 in 1914.  By 1947, that had increased to 1,200,000.  Looks like immigration, to Palestine, was not only a Jewish thingie.

[Comrade Nik]

Quote:The "wailing wall" is one side of the Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (one of the most holy muslim sites) .Hundreds of Archeological expeditions by both jews and Arabs have confirmed that the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque Complex (including that wall) was built during the Islamic Age (After 650CE).  Therefore the "wailing wall" cannot be a remnant of Solomans Temple, (the rest of which was destroyed >1000 years ago.)


Two things...
a) If you want us to believe it, prove it.
b) How does that matter?

In reply to "a", I'll look into it.

In reply to "b". If it is indeed an Islamic structure then the Jews should have no problem in 1) staying away from it (as I think the area around it is a troubled area) and 2) The Palestinian authorities should be granted control over the area + 3) Even the principle of the thing... millions of jews flocking to the saide of an islamic monument + putting papers (no offence) into its walls.

Arab population in Palestine was approximately 200,000 in 1914.  By 1947, that had increased to 1,200,000.  Looks like immigration, to Palestine, was not only a Jewish thingie.

I did see some article around somewhere that stated something like that. I amn't sure of the stats or the facts.. so I can't give a proper answer, but

If the entire area around there was under foreign rule and the surrounding countries are islamic so I can assume that with no borders the nomads and other  peoples could come and go?!?

Also I don't think that there was widespread objection by the locals if that occured.

[shadwell2]

This site seems reasonably non-partisan on the issue: http://www.mideastweb.org/PalPop.htm

[Mike]

If the entire area around there was under foreign rule and the surrounding countries are islamic so I can assume that with no borders the nomads and other  peoples could come and go?!?

Also I don't think that there was widespread objection by the locals if that occured.

So the entire problem...is with the immigrants being Jews.  It's just fine for a group of Islamic people to wander back and forth across the border...then collect in the country in large numbers...nobody objects.  But when the Jews immigrate to the country...there's a problem?!
According to the quote...

[Comrade Nik]

"A land with no people is for a people with no land".  - A slogan used to intice European Jews to move to Israel when it was first set up!

Based on Ottoman records ...

In the early 19th century Palestines pop. was 350,000.
In 1914 it had 657,000
uslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs and 59,000 jews (including many european jews.)

So the jewish pop. in Palestine in 1914 was 8%, much smaller that the Christian Arab pop.  

Also in 1945 Palestinians owned and operated >93% of the lands in Palestine. Since then 80% of the Palestinian people became DISPOSSESSED from their homes, farms, and businesses.

The roots of the 1948 war go as far back as the first recognition on the part of the Palestinians that the zionists wished to establish a jewish state on their land. In late 1947 the United Nations proposed that Palestine be divided into a Palestinian Arab state and a jewish state. The UN Partition Plan recommended that 55 percent of Palestine, and the most fertile region, be given to the jewish settlers who compromised 30 percent of the population. The remaining 45 percent of Palestine was to comprise a home for the other 70 percent of the population who were Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected the plan because it was unfair.

israel and its supporters claim that the Arabs first attacked in Janurary 1948 and then invaded israel in May 1948. But ben-gurion states otherwise..

"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" - ben gurion

So the entire problem...is with the immigrants being jews

.

Yes + No. Its not them being jews, its the amount of them being jews.
I mean Palestinians made up 92% of the pop. in 1914. They now make up less than 50% is that fair. They used to have control over 93% of the land. The now don't have control over any.

Even the UN wasn't being fair to them. 30% were granted 55% including the most fertile land. the remaining 70& got 45% of the second best.

It's just fine for a group of Islamic people to wander back and forth across the border...then collect in the country in large numbers...nobody objects.  

I think I was wrong. I turns out they weren't nomads! Even if they did they must have lived in Palestine half the time. Also they didn't "collect" there.

But when the Jews immigrate to the country...there's a problem?!

Well firstly yes there is when millions of them immigrate. And secondly it wasn't their country. How would you like it if 300,000,000 Russians immigrated to the US during the cold war?

[Mike]

How would you like it if 300,000,000 Russians immigrated to the US during the cold war?

No more than we'd like 300,000,000 Mexicans immigrating...

30% were granted 55% including the most fertile land. the remaining 70& got 45% of the second best.

But you said that plan was rejected...  And your numbers have changed greatly since you last brought up this argument.

"Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad" - ben gurion

That does not mean that none attacked.  That means that none succeeded.

[el_malo]

Xavier, it's nice to see that you have done more than, just scan the internet and watch TV news... for your information.  I only have one major disagreement with what you have posted.  Your historical data is accurate, for the most part.  As an intellectual exercise, we could quibble about population figures, but that would be wasted on this crew.

The many and varied peoples, that occupied the area called Palestine, possessed no national identity.   The province was a forgotten, backwater hell-hole.  It was considered by Turkish officials, as a major step down in their careers.

The concept of a "Palestinian nation"... is a product of the 1960"s/70's.  Personally, I am totally in favor of a Palestinian homeland.  I do not support, permitting this self-governing entity... to commit murder and war on its neighbors.

If I was writing a "what-if", the story-line would probably be:

1.  A confederation of Israel, Palestinian State and Jordan.

2.  In a few years, Lebanon is freed from Syrian control... joins confederation.  

3.  Somewhere in this, I would create a Druse homeland that would be a member state of the confederation.

It's a shame that the "little" guys in the MidEast don't realize, that it is only by standing together... that the bigs guys can be keep at bay.  

[Marlow]

Go Israel!
(I'll try to read it all and sum up my opinions in 1 post later)