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belbincolne
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« on: 02/03/03 at 02:39 AM »

When you're trying to open up a distant area it’s obvious that the closer together mines/logging camps/farms etc are to teamsters, housing, market place/food the quicker they are productive and I usually build them in this order although it can often take years (and years, and years) especially as you may not want to build a construction office in the area first.  This is particularly the case for gold mines as, on most maps, the gold fields always seem to be in some far distant corner.  
As, initially, the workers live in town so have to travel to it, would building a construction office help anyway?  Similarly later on as teamsters have to get to the dock does it make that much difference whether their office is near the dock or the production unit? (It seems to).
Finally when you’ve got it all built the blighters are often unwilling to leave their current housing (near the Pub!) to go and live near work – and some unhoused blighter (working in town of course) grabs the spot you’d built for them. You can fire tenants – does this get them to move to the right place (or might they emigrate?) – or are you better off just waiting and hoping?  Anyone done any research, got any ideas?
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« Reply #1 on: 02/03/03 at 09:18 AM »

Evicting tenents tends to get them to move to more appropriate places, whether closer to work or to better living conditions, as does raising their rent to more than they can afford. Either way will lower their happiness though.
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« Reply #2 on: 02/03/03 at 11:20 AM »

Hear... hear, CK.   I like creating a random map and then editing the terrain.   I'm getting fairly deft at ringing my islands with mountains.   The cliffs and rocky beaches look great.

Next, I have two or three passes that allow access to a "Land That Time Forgot " environment.   I leave Logging camps on clear-cut... I need to  Cool.
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« Reply #3 on: 02/03/03 at 03:05 PM »

Well thanks guys but (a) I aint gonna use RAPIDO because that sure is cheating and would make the game far too easy but its the 8 cluster grid that's getting me.  The only grid I know is the toggle G and 8 squares is about an inch on my screen (working at the 1st resolution when you cant see people) which is super effective for building - it's three to four time this distance before it begins to get bad let alone disastrous. Is this the grid you're referring to or something else?
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« Reply #4 on: 02/03/03 at 03:53 PM »

The only grid I know is the toggle G and 8 squares is about an inch on my screen

G is the green grid. C is the yellow grid.
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« Reply #5 on: 02/03/03 at 06:03 PM »

One suggestion after you have built the distant mini town is to have a mass eviction.

I do this regularly in the game anyway.

Just freeze the game and then set all housing rentals island wide to $30.

Unfreeze the game at it slowest setting.

Be watching a random occupied housing now.

Then moment the housing goes empty freeze the game again and reset the rentals back to normal levels.

Then run the game as normal.

After the mass eviction, the people will move to the housing that's as close to their work as occupancy allows.  Married couples find a good middle location.

Some notes on this trick:

1) It works poorly if a decent portion of your peons still live in shacks.
2) Avoid doing this in election years as happiness drops for a few months.
3) It's great way to get college educated out of the apartments into your new houses.  It's much easier than chasing them.
4) You can use a staggered return system by releasing rents on individual housing styles one at a time.  This allows you to perform the above (#3) operation.
5) If you run the game too fast during the operation you will get a housing warning from the communists.  I still wouldn't worry about it much.
6) Rarely will anyone slap down a new shack if you do it slow enough.

I tend to use elections as my cue to do this.  Once I win the election, I always run this operation.  It helps to resettle them every 6 to 10 years as marriages, deaths, and immigrants throw off good arrangement.  And by doing it after elections, I get a good reminder to do it without any real risk to happiness over the long run.


A quick note on my Rapido habit.  While waiting for idiot laborers chaps my hide to no end, roads are best left to laborers.  Rapido roads do not clear off the vegetation, leaving an obstructed road.  Thus, I always keep one or two construction offices staffed anyway.
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« Reply #6 on: 02/03/03 at 10:13 PM »

Hmmmm....I have never tried a mass eviction like that. The worst I have done is raise the rents on a tenement to get the wealthier to move to apartments... It seems to me that this would be a borderline cheat... Not really a timing cheat, like the hotel rich-poor one, though....
Hmmm...no...not really cheating....just ruthless tactics to achieve an end. I will have to try it on one of my happiness maps...
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« Reply #7 on: 02/04/03 at 12:41 AM »

Is it really a cheat when you use nothing other than the normal in-game programming?

The game allows rent changes and evictions.

This is a single player game.

Man verses the programming.

The program puts difficulty on the player.

Does it compensate you when a teamster dies with his load?

Does it allow you to change your mind if you place an order for roads or vegetation?

What about dockworkers leaving for a nap in the middle of the loading process.

These are difficulties that are expected be be overcome through skill.  Sure, you could build in excessive redundancy, but, at the loss of efficiency and score.

Exploiting the existing in-game programming is only game mastery and skill.

Which is why I also feel that adjusting hotel pricing is a legit move.

Now my use of the Rapido macro command is clearly an outside cheating action.

But, I clearly don't hide it's use when discussing skill or strategy.

It's for my enjoyment only during random maps.

Using it in a scenario does not test your skill against other players.

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« Reply #8 on: 02/04/03 at 05:15 AM »

Thats great.  Thanks Brf for the C info - doesn't appear in the Manual so knew nothing about it. Will try next time I'm playing.

Junta - your way is obvious and why on earth didn't I think of it. Dont regard it as cheating either - it's only an extreme way of doing what landlords do in real life unlike the hotel scam which wouldn't work - and Tropico is real life isn't it??? Surely it's not a game??

Here in Britain we had a guy called Rachman in the 50's and in the last few years another called Van Hoogestraten who did just that (amongst other nasties) PLEASED TO SAY THEY BOTH FINISHED UP IN JAIL (OR EVEN GAOL) - so Junta we'd better watch out when we use it!!
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« Reply #9 on: 02/04/03 at 01:25 PM »

By doing it following the elections, I've never suffered any long term effects.

If done properly, no citizen is homeless for more than a day or so.

As a mattter of fact, it can increase happiness when you use the staggered method.  More citizens move into those nicer accomodations.  Especially your valuable educated folk and married couples.  And the latter will bring their children which are notoriously hard to please.
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« Reply #10 on: 02/04/03 at 03:26 PM »

Yeah....I suppose things like that could really happen in real life too....
I can see the yacht pulling up and the tourists seeing a sign "All hotels only 1 peso!!!!" and the tourist arriving at their room and finding out it is really 50 pesos....No real cheat, since it mirrors real-life.
The mass-eviction doesnt seem so bad either after you consider the problems you mention, and a few others....like people walking in circles trying to find their way to work, and teamsters going cross-country when there is a road close-by, or how about all the dockworkers abandoning the dock all at once and not coming back for several years. It makes perfect sense to find the best nearby housing for everyone when they cannot find it themselves.
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« Reply #11 on: 02/04/03 at 03:41 PM »

With the limited controls we have on the peons' actions, we need to utilize what we can do to the fullest.

A good Presidente knows what's best for his citizens.  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: 02/04/03 at 06:07 PM »

Well, as a good communist I always do whats best for my citizens!!
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« Reply #13 on: 02/05/03 at 12:41 PM »

Well  I played again since my last post and used the C grid.  Eight spaces looks about right to me, any further and they take years and years to build.  I like to keep my builders (and teamsters and factory workers) on easy does it.  If I do have to build a long way away I shift them on to overtime and find that this does help if you do it for a short burst only.
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« Reply #14 on: 09/10/03 at 07:42 PM »

I have used the eviction strategy, and found it to be very effective.  However, simply building far more housing than you need works without the hit to your popularity.  I know I have enough housing when my bunkhouses are empty (at which point they become free housing for orphans) my tenements are nearly deserted, and the apartments at the outskirts are partially filled.  People move around a lot by themselves, then, as many apartments (except those in the densest areas) have 1 or 2 open units.

Developing distant areas is difficult.  The problem gets exponentially worse on larger islands, forested islands, and steep islands.  I build a construction office and two apartments first (no crime riddled tenements on the outskirts where there aren't any cop shops yet), then market and a clinic. They can then get the basics without leaving the area.  Depending on the situation, I may put up a church and a pub or restaurant also.

I used to think making people happy made them work faster, now I know better.  The more things there are for them to do (church, clinic, entertainment, etc.) the longer they spend walking around.  Travel time is the worst destroyer of productivity.  Just watch how long it takes them to walk!   Nowadays, when I want to make them happy, I try to keep things efficient by putting things close by.  So that church only has one visitor and the pub is losing money every month, I more than make up for it in increased worker efficiency.

On a side note, if you DON"T give your people medical care, churches, and entertainment, you have two options for keeping your military in line: micromanagement, where you only keep soldiers whose prime happiness indicator is 'Job' or 'Respect' (and if it's the latter, they better be supporters of a faction that likes you); and the military base, which provides food, housing, medical care, and entertainment for those living on it.  Finally, you can oppress the peasants while keeping your military happy!

Yeah, yeah, I'm still a bleeding heart pansy liberal, but I recognize a good strategy when I see it.  After taking a  long break from tropico, I've started trying to play the oppressive ruler.  Of course, I can never stay the course with oppression, and usually end up allowing elections and trying to make the lil' buggers happy in the end... What I want to know is, how do you get a large population while oppressing people?  When I keep the wages down, the immigrants won't come.  It seems like the efficiency advantage of having no distractions and low pay is outweighed by the lack of immigrants, especially if you start doing executions and purges.
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« Reply #15 on: 09/11/03 at 03:30 AM »

Hey loverevolutionary, good to see you back at the Cafe. Smiley

I tend to follow the repressive route, deny every election and provide little by the way of services.

An island of 750 usually has 2 hospitals, I cathedral and 1 church, plus a variety of low-grade entertainment.

Housing is either Tenements, or for the rich, Apartments.

Well, when it comes to ruling this kind of island successfully (i.e staying in power) there are only a few key factors which will drive your game.

i) The army - 3 military bases, perhaps 4, will suffice for an island of 750 Tropicans, and around 50 soldiers. Ensure these are placed near additional entertainment.

When it comes to the army, they will, over time, become unhappy with the lack of elections, so on that basis it helps no end to cull the army every 2 years of those who have low respect/happiness, as well as their family of course.

(A prison, with 2 guard posts, set in the jungle helps keep the murders away from prying eyes, and given the whole family is in prison at the same time, all you do is release them one-by-one and issue the eliminate edict. A soldier from one of the near-by posts will do the deed.)

The army should always be paid well, and try to fulfill their entertainement desires, as well as ensuring none are housed away from the army base, in some shack somewhere.

ii) Money - Seems obvious I suppose loverevolutionary, but without good $$$ coming in, keeping the people under your heel is very difficult.

Given tourism can be hit by the effects of a repressive regime/bad relations with the U.S, you cannot afford to have a huge tourist industry upon which to base your income alone - at least not without leaving a lot of un-educated men out of work and the possibility of empty rooms when you go on a killing spree.

As such it is more beneficial to have, say, 10-12 hotels, with the usual attractions, plenty of beaches and pools, so that the income covers almost all of your expenses.

Ensure the usual tourist edicts to attract them are always issued.

Industry is - following the use of the tourism industry to prop up the expenses - where the profit comes from. Yup, it is fickle, but when the island is run repressively, all the eggs in one basket does not work.

The third element to the money issue, after tourism and industry, is the media.

The media serves the third tool of tyranny, by way of programmes that influence your people positively towards you, yet at the same time also offer a huge $$$ sum year on year. A newspaper on Coupons, 3 TV stations and 3 radio stations can, with a population of 750, cover all of your expense base just as well as tourism.

With the lack of provisions provided, I also find loverevolutionary that folks have more time to work, even if they are unhappy.

When it comes to pay, I tend to set it $2 above Caribbean average, and get a huge influx of people. After that I lower the wage and set it to 'no one gets out alive' then arrest and kill the most vocal/ambitious.

A contraception ban also ensures a good flow of kids, whilst keeping the church happy.

Long-term repression needs huge micromanagement and a yearly analysis of the Almanac, but it is worth it in the end.

If you have any questions just shout. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: 09/11/03 at 07:17 AM »

All I can say is that this a hell of a way from my original question !!!!!!
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« Reply #17 on: 09/11/03 at 07:36 AM »

LOL - I thought that as I replied. But hey, it involves repression, so I could not say no. Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: 09/11/03 at 08:37 AM »

I thought you might have replied to the wrong thread, seeing as there an "opresive ruling" one only one down.
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« Reply #19 on: 09/11/03 at 10:04 AM »

OK Brf, the challenge is on you to script a scenario that allows MrP and the rest of the militarists, to indulge in their favorite past-time... turning the thumb-screws  Grin.
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« Reply #20 on: 09/11/03 at 10:41 AM »

What El Malo says - with big bells on!  Cheesy
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« Reply #21 on: 09/11/03 at 10:47 AM »

OK Brf, the challenge is on you to script a scenario that allows MrP and the rest of the militarists, to indulge in their favorite past-time... turning the thumb-screws  Grin.

What you want? Just one that requires a certain size of army and zero liberty to win?
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« Reply #22 on: 09/11/03 at 11:06 AM »

My thoughts on a "militarist" scenario (I'm sure mrP will have some, too).. .

1.   The infrastructure, population and economy should be more develop than is normal... at the start.  

2.   The primary scoring should be related to the army and police.  

a.  Size of the armed forces would be one factor.  
b.  How effective gov't control of the island is... would be another.  
c.  Number of dead rebel should be worth something.

3.   The size of El Prez's Swiss Bank Account is a factor.

4.   There should be a main urban area (capital) and several minor urban areas.  
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« Reply #23 on: 09/11/03 at 11:12 AM »

Yup, I agree with all you say El. (Great minds.... Wink)

The number of soldiers and police should be a factor, as El says, perhaps as a % of the overall population?

As for the number of dead rebels, you bet a score for them - Also however a score for those killed by the government that were not rebels, or died in prison. Can that be done?



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« Reply #24 on: 09/11/03 at 11:33 AM »

Oh yeah, one other thing, it should have lots of events... both good and bad.
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