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MrManganese
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« Reply #25 on: 04/01/04 at 09:09 AM »

Okay, but I checked all 200 of those females' home/employment pages and they were all shown as being employed, just like the lists would suggest. So even if this theory is true (as I cannot prove it isn't true), it would not explain the apparently low occurence of mothers in my population.
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« Reply #26 on: 04/02/04 at 09:48 PM »

I was doing some testing and watched a single farmer closely. She started out single then got married. I was watching her thoughts and saw an interesting line of them
"I'm going to have a baby"
"I hope everyone at my new job likes me"

Only she didn't take a new job, she continued working at the exact same farm...she even gave birth right in the middle of the corn field and kept on working. She had 2 more babies like this...not once for a moment leaveing her farm job or stopping her work there, but always had the "I'm haveing a baby" directly followed by the "new job" quote.

Perhaps there is a % chance each time a woman "is going to have a baby" that she quits her job and turns to the mother avatar. in a sequence like
1. Quit job
2. Check to see if woman will become "mother"
3. if not 2, then return to work at same job.

Sometimes when watching a job closely, i've seen a female worker blink quickly...perhaps thats her becomming pregnent and decideing to keep on working anyway. I still do see mother avatars later in the game, bu tthey are rare.

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How many teamsters does it take to change a lightbulb: 1, but it'll never get done. There are 38.4 units of lightbulbs piled up at the factory and nobody is doing a dadgumed thing with them.
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« Reply #27 on: 04/03/04 at 03:27 AM »

Haven't read through all these posts in detail so I hope I'm not repeating but one thing I have noticed is that when I've provided lots of housing shacks frequently still exist and are chiefly occupied by solo babies! They learn to fend for themselves quick in Tropicoland!!
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« Reply #28 on: 04/03/04 at 10:35 PM »

You should only see children in housing slots if their mother dies....

The last game I played Tropico, I was using the Immigration office on Skilled to fill the highschool jobs, when I noticed one of my Diplomats was missing.... I found her on the Educated list, still wearing her Diplomat avator.... but clicking on her revealed she had no job. She had given birth and was at home taking care of the kid. Her avatar was still Diplomat and her job slot was empty. When she decided her brat was old enough (I didnt notice how old) she took a job at the construction office next-door to her home.

Perhaps it depends on the type of job the mother has... a farmer has to work the fields to produce anything, but a diplomat gets the benefit whether she is there at work or not....
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« Reply #29 on: 04/04/04 at 12:20 AM »

Often times I've seen couples move into my tenements (priced so that singles can afford it) one a man and one a mother. I think that if a mother can quit her job and still keep their current houseing that she'll be more likely to take the mother avatar...the excpetion being shacks
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How many environmentalists does it take to change a lightbulb? None, they're all outside protesting the power plant.

How many teamsters does it take to change a lightbulb: 1, but it'll never get done. There are 38.4 units of lightbulbs piled up at the factory and nobody is doing a dadgumed thing with them.
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« Reply #30 on: 04/04/04 at 10:30 AM »

Well think of the smell of the unchanged diapers, of course nobody wants to live there.

"Why didn't you change the baby?"
"The diaper packages says good up to 30 pounds"
"Thats referring to the baby's weight!"
"Oh"
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How many Silver spoons does it take to change a lightbulb: One to hold the bulb while the world revolves around them.


How many environmentalists does it take to change a lightbulb? None, they're all outside protesting the power plant.

How many teamsters does it take to change a lightbulb: 1, but it'll never get done. There are 38.4 units of lightbulbs piled up at the factory and nobody is doing a dadgumed thing with them.
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« Reply #31 on: 04/04/04 at 10:32 AM »

We are moving away from Pinstar's % Married but this is a fascinating thread.

CK - thats a cool observation about orphans occupying a property.

Is there an exploit here ?  Do those orphans pay rent and are they rent sensitive ?  Increase the rent and do they stay put and pay up ?  If they do then...heh heh heh theres a money making opportunity.  Increase the rent to maximum.....ensure a steady supply of new orphans.......evil   Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: 04/04/04 at 11:40 AM »

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They pay no rent and they do not move until they become "regular" children

Trop2 is different of course but this works back in 1650. A demoslish order to clear the property.  Issuing this in Trop2 causes the property to empty. Once its done its job of clearing all occupants (and paths to the building) I then cancel the demolish order.

Would this work in the orphan squatting situation in Trop1?  Force those orphans onto the streets and the building becomes available for occupation by respectable rent paying Tropicans. Seems reasonable.
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Last Played Tropico2 in Oct2004...after 9 months of playing it.  Not bad value for a £10 purchase.
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« Reply #33 on: 09/15/11 at 01:24 PM »

...
I just loaded Trop1 Tutorial and immediately stopped it. The demographics are very different.  Some observations that remained largly unchanged after one month of game time:
- all babies had a mother
- all children of age up to 8 had a mother
- all children of 9 or over had a working mum as opposed to a yellow 'mother'
- All couples living in shacks had children of one sort or another (except a pensioner couple)
- There were homeless single mothers aged 15 & 16
- There were mothers with no children or babies...pregnant?
- Only one couple both working, no children. Woman however had a thought saying 'I'm going to have a baby'.
...

This observation is really a bummer. It does not portray what we learned about the actual programmed function of the Mother avatar. In fact, it is terribly misleading. It does support the fact that the developers had at the last minute to adjust the use of the Mother avatar because the economy can not support so many non-productive (non-working) female gender citizens.

A post from "PopTop Dave" is deep in the archives. In it he lies that the Mother avatar was always intended to be only for the nine months of pregnancy. Certainly his lie is revealed by the data from the tutorial -- and all of the publisher prepared scenarios.

The result of a lot of gameplay experience with T1 (and now with T3 & T4) having to support infants, children and retirees along with Mothers who do not work until they have no children younger than eight ( 8 ) makes the game too hard for players to master.

Therefore, it is clear that the developers could not actually deal with gender balance as was intended at the start of development.
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« Reply #34 on: 10/19/11 at 11:04 AM »

Someone finally turned on the blinding flash of light in my mind.

I need to compare the tutorial code with the final code.

Perhaps a few simple, selective substitutions from the tutorial code to the final code will obtain the result of a laboriously constructed "MOD" -- do you suppose?
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« Reply #35 on: 11/05/11 at 11:09 AM »

Deeper Analysis
Collection of Pinstar's notes.

Back when I first played tropico, I developed a pretty effective strategy for making sure everyone in the island population had housing without building too much of it and wasteing space/money.

Originally my rule of thumb went,
Total job slots X 1.5= Total housing slots required. The 1.5 accounts for the singles in your population who take up 2 housing slots for 1 person. Thus my tactic assumes that 50% of the people on the island will be married at any given time. Has anyone done any research to show a more accurate %? Assuming a normal 50/50 male to female ratio on the island. ...

Quote
This adds but one more node to my research: What % of females wear the mother avatar during any given time? Do you think the gender balance formula would work if an arbitrary % was added to the "female only jobs"?
So for example if my research finds that 1/10 of my female population are mothers at any given time, I would simply multiply the "female only" job count by 1.10.

Quote
I think the reason it seems more women are mothers in the very begining is:
1. The game almost always starts with some of your women as mothers;
2. All of your people are out in the open and in view, and the yellow dressed mothers stick out visually;
3. In the very beginning, there's less to do (once you plop down your initial buildings) thus you are more prone just to survey your population randomly, thus making it more likely for you to click and notice a mother

I think later in the game you look mostly at your important industries (power plant, dock, factories etc.) to make sure they are filled, thus would neve notice a mother. Once they have housing, mothers generally stay indoors at home, walking around only to get food or fufill their health or religion needs. Also later on, there are so many peons it's hard to notice them from the crowd.

I'm dubious that 100% of the female population would be off baby-making, even on a full tilt birth island (contraception ban + birth setting on clinics) I doubt 100% of the women would be wearing the mother avatar.

I was doing some testing and watched a single farmer closely. She started out single then got married. I was watching her thoughts and saw an interesting line of them:
"I'm going to have a baby"
"I hope everyone at my new job likes me"

Only she didn't take a new job, she continued working at the exact same farm -- she even gave birth right in the middle of the corn field and kept on working. She had 2 more babies like this -- not once for a moment leaving her farm job or stopping her work there, but always had the "I'm having a baby" directly followed by the "new job" quote.

Perhaps there is a % chance each time a woman "is going to have a baby" that she quits her job and turns to the mother avatar. in a sequence like:
1. Quit job;
2. Check to see if woman will become "mother";
3. if not 2, then return to work at same job.

Sometimes when watching a job closely, i've seen a female worker blink quickly -- perhaps that's her becoming pregnant and deciding to keep on working anyway. I still do see mother avatars later in the game, but they are rare.

What do we see from this carefully reported stuff?  Given the information in the obsecure post by a PopTop representative on the archives board, we understand that the Mother avatar has a very attenuated role, and barely has time to appear. Pinstar comes close, but no cigar. The actual sequence:
1. Periodically (probably quarterly), all married females are checked by the "Pregnancy Algorithm" (rather complex);
2. if they pass, they have the thought "I'm going to have a baby" and quit their job, leaving the work force;
3. nine months later her baby appears in the population data and she returns to the work force;
4. she passes the "job selection algorithm" check for assignment to a new job and has the thought "I hope everyone at my new job likes me";
5. or goes to Unemployed status and has the thought connected with it.
There are lots of problems in trying to figure this out from observation of the various avatars associated with a single unit. You really have to start with the information in that obscure post.

To try to answer Pinstar's research about maximizing both rental income and numbers of adults in housing (other than shacks), the factor for vacancies in female only jobs due to "motherhood" would be very small since it involves only a nine month period. You should be able to make a good guess by looking at the record of births over a few representative years.
"Churning" However, you should now be aware that there is considerable "churning" in housing occupancy and employment based on that nine month absence from the workforce. If the male spouse alone can't pay the rent, they have to move; when she goes back to work they may move again to regain whatever. When she returns to work, she may be in the same occupation, but rarely will she be in the exact same job slot.

The really difficult problem about trying to understand all this by simple observation is a lack of knowledge of how units change avatars. It does not happen in the blink of an eye; but in fact it is subject to a strange set of rules. The change has to happen in a building and not just any building. An other discussion entirely.



Quote
Random observation: When a child grows up, they go from the child avatar to the "Jobless" avatar, even if they take a job right away. Sometimes I'll be looking at a building and a job slot gets filled by someone who has the jobless avatar -- clicking on it, they're always 13 or so. Given that jobless are more likely to get education, I would think native born tropicans are more likely to attend school right when they grow up. I did see (one "dougie houser") a native born tropican who was a doctor at the age of 16. Made sense because of his "excellent" intelligence.

Again -- too much reliance on the misconception that avatar changes happen instantly. The unit changes its avatar ONLY when it is in a building -- and not just any building. It has to be its residence or its building of employment. The unit goes into its residence only when it has to rest, not just to shift avatars. The unit goes into an employment building only if it is employed there and is going to work. From this, it should be evident that the unit's actual status and the avatar it is wearing are not always in synchronization. So the female unit who becomes pregnant and unemployed does not "retain a job" - just the incorrect avatar. When a unit transmogrifies from Child to 'adult', it automatically passes into Unemployed status because it is not instantly subject to the "Job Selection Algorithm." The 'urban legends' about why Tropicans go to school are the result of too much reliance on verisimilitude. No Tropican has heard the "American Mantra" <<get education before food>> !! Tropican Mothers do NOT flog their children to be Doctors or Bankers or Lawyers.
« Last Edit: 01/09/12 at 08:53 AM by Coconut Kid » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #36 on: 11/05/11 at 11:41 AM »

NEXT
MrManganese

I went into my game knowing that I had a strangely low number of mothers considering my population size. I didn't realize exactly how low! See if you can find the one mother among my people.

Sadly - the attachment we were supposed to search is lost. However, this is yet again an assumption, or series of assumptions, based on false premises. As mentioned previously (now), the unit's actual status and the avatar it is wearing do NOT become instantly synchronized when the status changes.

Knowing the exact percentage of my people who are married is becoming more and more important to me. ... Right now the only stable game I have going is showing that 70% of my workers are married. I could REALLY use statistical data about other peoples' games, but it's sort of a difficult number to obtain since the game doesn't exactly list how many people are married.

... while the base rent for housing is barely enough to offset maintenance and power costs, there is no additional expense involved in housing a person's spouse. So that person's [that spouse's] rent is all profit ...

The attempt to micromanage rents to this extent leads to some perplexing complications. When the employed spouse becomes pregnant, she instantly (or nearly so) becomes unemployed and, even though she continues to wear the employed job avatar, she can no longer contribute to the rent and the couple (plus children) are kicked out. They move to cheaper housing for which the husband alone can pay. While living there, she has the baby -- which may spend its first three years where it was born even if its mother moves to better housing when she goes back to work.

Whatever happens with the baby, there is both job "churning" and, with closely managed rents, housing "churning" with pregnancy.

Quote
... I also just realized that if there's a big enough differential between uneducated and educated salaries (bigger by a factor of two at least), the luxury houses will start attracting wealthy single folk. One could account for this by calculating the number of educated single people and adjusting the proportion of luxury houses accordingly. But oh, what a headache.

And for whom is that a surprise?
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« Reply #37 on: 01/09/12 at 09:59 AM »

CK - thats a cool observation about orphans occupying a property.
Is there an exploit here ?  Do those orphans pay rent and are they rent sensitive ?  Increase the rent and do they stay put and pay up ?  ...

I apoligize for having deleted my original reply.

Babies are immobile and invisible on the map from their appearance\birth in the Almanac from their birthday to their third birthday when they transmogrify into a child avatar. Their starting location is the home rented\occupied by their mother on their birthday. I do not know if they move to other 'on-island' houses as their mother does during this three years. I do know that if the mother emmigrates or dies, they are stuck in the house where they were when she goes away. They do not pay rent, so they are not sensitive to rent changes. They do count as an occupant to the extent that no one else may move in; it's hard to discover that a baby is the actual occupant of what otherwise appears to be a vacant housing unit. Bulldozing the building is just counterproductive. It leaves them occupying a tile there, and causes them to be unable to transmogrify to the child avatar. That in turn causes them to starve to death a while after their third birthday.
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