This Game is SOOO Unbalaced

[Silver Silence]

I know this game is old, but the game concept is classic.  I first try out Railroad Tycoon II by Poptop.   It was a well known classic at a good bargain price when I got it.  It contain a demo of Tropico.  As soon as I try it I know I am looking at another good classic.  I picked up the macho edition in a bargain bin.  Concept of the game is really intriguing and promising.  From any way you look at it, it is a good game nonethess.  One flaw I find tho is that the political aspect of the game is not fully realized.  The Tropico "sims" doesn't really interact socially and give depth to the game.  This is probably limited by hardware resource.

Another flaw I see is even more disappointing and could have been fixed.  Tourism is too easy - it kill all other industry.  There is no point to play a militant communist other than for role playing sake.  Say you max out political and economical difficulty, it is impossible to make very profitable income from traditional industry without tourism.  Eventually, because of insufficient funding, you would have problem making people happy and lose the game.  Even if you manage to stay in power without tourism, the final score would be low.  I got some 1400 point that way.  This happen even if your character trait is gear for production industry.  On the other hand if I geared up my character to build a tourist paradise, it is a much easier game in the same difficulty setting.  I slap down two hotel and build a mini-tourist sector at the beginning, and my fund will never go negative. (unlike an production industry island where fund go negative half of the time.)  I got 7400 points, same setting, different character.  

So the industries are not balanced.  It is bad because it is far more interesting to watch the working of the infrastructure of production industry at work than a tourist industry.  I like to see how my farmer raise the crop, the teamster move crop to factory, have the factory worker turn it into goods and have the docker ship them out.  Tourism doesn't have these intriguing interaction and infrastructure.  But the game vastly encourage tourism.  At the end there is really just one way to play the game "right".  I think at the least there should be something like global economic condition that affect trade and have tourism to have a much more elastic demand than any other trade.  It is at least more realistic and would probably balance out the game.

And of course everybody know Pirate Cove is somewhat a disappointment.

[Brf]

Well....that is why some of the newer scenerios have unusual goals. The cash and stuff is usually immaterial. Try some the scenerios on my webpage and see.

[belbincolne]

Also it's not always true - that's the beauty of Trop.  Some Islands tourism is useless and tobacco provides mucho mucho.  Others cattle do.  Gold can be great or awful.  And so it goes on. As Brf says try out lots of scenarios - and when you can beat - say - Mt Sucio you'll know you're living!

[Silver Silence]

Wow I got two replies in one day.  I thought these forums are dead considering the age of the game.

I know the scenarios did give point to that, but I think the true depth of the game lies in its open end game mechanism, and an evaluation of the accomplishment through this mechanism.  It is essential to most sim building game.  I don't love the scenario as much, couldn't attach myself to it.  Especially they are stand alone without a meaningful campaign.

I hope there would be a tropico three that would actually put more depth and balance to tropico "sims" aspect.

[Egg]

  Hmm, how long have you been playing the game? I agree that it is indeed difficult to build a stable industry without tourism, but it can be done.

  The only condition? Slow game and monitoring every single aspect of the economy. That includes every dollar of wages, efficiency of every worker and then expenses of your island.

  At the hardest economic difficultly, tourists only bring in $4. If you set your hotels to charge anything higher, the tourists' happiness will drop and less tourists will come in the future.

  Probably the selection of traits would also be very important to gear for a heavy and high-end industry. Traits such as hardworking and such.

  Hope you have fun with the game and welcome to the cafe!

[Michaelis]

 
  At the hardest economic difficultly, tourists only bring in $4. If you set your hotels to charge anything higher, the tourists' happiness will drop and less tourists will come in the future.

 

This is completely untrue. In my last game, played as all others on max economic difficulty, I was charging top rates and my hotels were packed. This was without ANY tourist-related bonus in the dictator setup. But I had an airport and a ton of attractions, including colonial fort museum and archeological exhibit. The luxury hotel next to these two (they were grouped together, which forced me into the colonial fort museum thing - I like having a dungeon handy) was charging 50 a night and it was always full or almost completely full. My cheap hotels were charging 14-16 and they were full also (but they had a tourism rating of 46-48). Oh and to go completely boastful all this was without tourism-boosting edicts.

Silver Silence is absolutely right that the tourism side of things is unbalanced. His comments echo exactly what I had been thinking about his game (and I've been playing Tropico for a looong time). And I honestly don't know how the 'Hotel Corporate Buyout' ever made it as a Rise to Power option. It unbalances the game completely - it's by far the most powerful option available. Maybe it was meant to balance the completely useless Travel Agent Presidente background option, though this assumption is very far-fetched.

[Egg]

Well, my question would be how you managed to afford the airport, 2 luxury hotels, powerstation and tons of attraction. Playing at the hardest economic level, it would be quite tough to pull it off unless you have cheats...

I think what you have to try is hardest economic and politcal difficulty. I'm sorry to say but a rating of 40+ is not very good, you have to get at least 65+ to be considered good assuming you are playing at such a difficult level. Furthermore, charging them the full price probably caused the tourism rating to drop.

But alas, I think you have a point. The game is unbalanced but you still can survive on industry alone. Besides, if you do not feel the challange because the game is unbalanced, just play hardest political and economic difficulty using industry only! That should be something. Ciao!

[belbincolne]

As you seem to be playing Trop only on your own settings I'd suggest that you try some of the scenarios which will give a real challenge - not just those on whatever disc you've got but some of the download ones (try any of Brf's which are all recent).  If you've got Mucho Macho they're all pretty easy but some of the others are right stinkers and your hotel complex wont bring in much cash!

[Brf]

Yeah....like Busted for instance. I only tried Tourism on that one once and didnt try again. It might be interesting to see if it would work....and industry is the best way to get Swiss cash in Inheritance...and with Favoritism cash helps, but that isnt what gets you points

[Brf]

like Busted for instance

Actually I didnt lose too bad....it is always close...and there are two dockworkers trying to get the loads of freeze-dried coffee to the ship at the end.....

[Silver Silence]

 "At the hardest economic difficultly, tourists only bring in $4. If you set your hotels to charge anything higher, the tourists' happiness will drop and less tourists will come in the future. "

Yes, $4 at the beginning.  However as your tourist rating increases so would $ bring in by each tourist.  Their affordable expending would eventually increaes.  Increasing tourist rating is easy with a few key rule - pick green thumb trait, put the tourist sector at the upwind portion, no ugly/crime attracting building, and lots and lots of attraction and hotels.  It is really a no brainer

"Well, my question would be how you managed to afford the airport, 2 luxury hotels, powerstation and tons of attraction. Playing at the hardest economic level, it would be quite tough to pull it off unless you have cheats..."

That's the thing - even at the hardest level (both political and economical setting) tourism bring the cash in right from the start.  I can build airport and luxury hotel at the 12-15th year.  If I go for production industry, I will be grasping for cash just to satisfy people's need.  I don't need to use the hotel pricing exploits neither.  I set them all at 70% occupancy.  At the beginning, built one hotel with Hotel Buyout Traits, build a 2nd one with 5000, then a pub, a restaurant, 2 beach site, and your are set.  You may want to have an extra dock.  Once it get up and running you will neve see negative balance.

" Also it's not always true - that's the beauty of Trop.  Some Islands tourism is useless and tobacco provides mucho mucho.  Others cattle do.  Gold can be great or awful.  And so it goes on. As Brf says try out lots of scenarios - and when you can beat - say - Mt Sucio you'll know you're living!"

Well I do find that tourism always work, unless a scenario modified the basic rules.  The thing I am saying that is tourist should be more of a chanllege - make it more like a tycoon game.  Tourism have too much profit and not enough risk to balance out.  Tourism should be a mini-game in itself.   I guess that was intended - but it is a game with no challege whatsoever.

I hope  the next tropico game (if there will ever be) give the sims more role too.  I think this game has a good potential to develope into a story generating/ telling game.  Have biolograhy generated for the sims upon their death based on their traits and what they did and family tree.  Have a newspaper that tell what happened in town (much like simcity)  Give the political aspect of the game more depth - maybe more social problem to solve with new tools/concept.  I think those are good ideas.

[Michaelis]

Well, my question would be how you managed to afford the airport, 2 luxury hotels, powerstation and tons of attraction. Playing at the hardest economic level, it would be quite tough to pull it off unless you have cheats...

It's not that tough to pull it off. I never use cheats - they make the game boring. And no, the tourist rating didn't drop, and I had hordes of new tourists.

I always begin every game by building a hotel or two (one medium, one cheap). I set the dock to yachts only (since I pay my Tropicans peanuts for the first few years, no new immigrants arrive anyway). I also make a point of building dedicated tourist docks - approx. one for 60 hotel spaces - to keep those tourists coming. And of course I make tweaks here and there until tourist satisfaction is maxed out as much as possible given hotel limitations (the environment and the crime play big roles - I always make sure there are enough policemen in the area).

I begin by charging $10 in cheap hotels, $15-16 in the medium ones (I never go the automatic rate route, it's all manual). I'm usually able to jack the prices up to $12 and $20 respectively as soon as there are a few attractions. Beach sites especially can pull in as much money as a very good cheap hotel or so-so medium hotel, later on the swimming pool is a killer attraction (pretty nearly always packed when I set the admittance price just a notch below my beach sites, which can bring anywhere from $10 to $16 per guest). By 1953, tourism covers all my running expenses (excluding new construction) plus contributes a grand or two extra to the state coffers. I generally don't touch industry (save for a logging camp or an extra cash crop farm) until I've got a positive year-end balance based on hotel income only. As noted, this happens fairly fast. Usually I complete the initial phase around 1970. This includes a college, a newspaper, and a power plant, as well as two new town centres (meaning construction camp/housing/marketplace/church/ housing/ entertainment structure). I have to explain I always play on large maps; I like the way my island looks with 5 or 6 distinct cities linked by a nice road network.

No, you definitely don't need to cheat to make big money on max economic difficulty. Unless you stick with the default salaries - that will bankrupt you very quickly. Try starting off by paying everyone just $1 (soldier included). Just check the courage/leadership rating of your single starting soldier - if it's high, raise his salary fairly frequently to reach $8 within a couple of years. Otherwise there might be a coup, though more likely he'll just emigrate, and then you get to spend even less on salaries. But make sure you have a soldat or two (one per 30 inhabitants works fine) by the time the election rolls around, or you'll lose the militarist vote.

[Brf]

I begin by charging

Hmmm....sounds like your sites are set a little low. I never use cheap hotels....and my medium hotels (set to 70%) are typically mostly full and bringing in 25+ the first year. When I setup beach sites, I always make two. I set one to the median price of the average tourist and set the other to high-class with a price of 30. I agree that the pool is a good draw too. I set it as high as I can while still keeping it mostly full. You can also make great cash with a tourist bank. make sure you only have as many bankers as you need to support the demand.

[TeamStar]

Try starting off by paying everyone just $1 (soldier included).

  Does this work in HIGH political stability too?

[Egg]

  I think it should, but be weary of a coup.

   Well I guess that they have generally made their point about tourism, yes it is too easy and thats why you see lots of countries emphasizing on tourism as a heavy source of income.

  So I suggest that we try to make the game more challenging. Martial Law with tourism? Heck don't use tourism at all. If industry were that hard, then gear your character traits for a high-end industry and try to play!

[Privateer0]

Well, it all depends on how you chose to play the game. I see this more as a simulation than a game with goals that you have to reach. Set it to open-ended, pick whatever conditions you like and play it the way you like. If you think tourism makes things too easy, don't use it. Try to build an industrial powerhouse instead.

Sure the game is unbalanced, as in some ways are easier than others, and not just in the economy. Politically, the game heavily encourages you to go 'free democracy' approach, while punishing heavily such acts as elimination. But that doesn't mean you can't run a dictatorship for fun. Just set the difficulty a little lower and rule them with your iron fist.  

[FreeSpirit]

Yea baby.  Elections? Who needs elections?!  Muaahaha

Open end it up, and run with the fun.  Tourists, no tourists, it's all good.  I love this game!!

[Coconut Kid]

I know this game is old, but the game concept is classic.  ...  One flaw I find tho is that the political aspect of the game is not fully realized.  The Tropico "sims" doesn't really interact socially and give depth to the game.  This is probably limited by hardware resource.

Another flaw I see is even more disappointing and could have been fixed.  Tourism is too easy - it kill all other industry.  ...  Even if you manage to stay in power without tourism, the final score would be low.  ...  

So the industries are not balanced.  ...  But the game vastly encourage tourism.  ...

And of course everybody know Pirate Cove is somewhat a disappointment.

I find SS's faulting of the political\social interaction of the people to be a surprise. There are few games in which individual people simulate personalities and political interaction. So I don't know to what standard he is comparing Tropico.

Yes, tourism is too easy. After SS wrote this, it was discovered that the income from tourist accommodations is credited twice a year. Obviously, that makes it twice as easy as selling any of the exploited resources. This double credit was introduced by the Breakaway produced expansion "Paradise Island." Whether it is an accidental coding error or a deliberate "tilt" to meet a mandated requirement to emphasize tourism we will probably never know. It is quite irritating when added to the list of other bugs which Breakaway left in the game.

As to the scoring system: Scores are meaningless across games. The whole score business is a useless wart tacked onto the game because players are habituated to expect a "score." Faulting the game over high or low scores is senseless.

Pirate Cove disappoints those who want to play god with ship at sea combats.