How the hell can you be a Marxist?

[RedSentry]

Being a Marxist IRL, I try to be a Marxist in the game. And every time I try it, it turns into a Leftist-Military Dictatorship, with the working-class getting three coins and the army getting fourty. Further more, what I find is that with a Leftist-Military Dictatorship is that if you try to get factories and what not, you loose a heck of a lot of money. Thus, I have to have my entire economy based on farming, which ticks the capitalists off...

Note: I'm the playing the demo. I have to wait about three weeks until I get the game. But anyway, how is it possible to be a Marxist in this game? It seems impossible to me.

[Crandaddy]

That's very interesting.  How Tropico sometimes reflects real life--sounds like what really happened in Russia and Cuba!  They tried to be a workers paradise but became mere military-based dictators while waving a Marxist flag.  (I know that's a gross oversimplification, but neither was what Marx really had in mind.)

Anyway, you can be a Marxist without necessarily having to be a military state, and still keep the capitalists somewhat happy.  The goals of the communists and the capitalists are really not at odds with each other.  I have finished many games where I have "Very Close" or better ratings from both the Communist and Capitalist factions.  Communists want decent housing for everyone, good pay for the uneducated workers and a relatively low income disparity.  They aren't against factories and banks.  Capitalists want factories and banks, and they like freedom somewhat.  Pay your low-wage earners more than 3 pesos.  It will help both with immigration and keeping the Communists happy so they don't revolt.  Generals shouldn't need 40 pesos pay unless you're in the year 2010, but you have to make sure they are otherwise happy (good housing, food, etc.).  Actually, by giving the generals 40 pesos, you're pissing off the Commies because of the income disparity factor, which really works against you if your General is a Communist...

Making money from factories shouldn't be hindered by your leftist leanings, though a capitalist background can help increase productivity.  It just takes practice:  making sure you have enough inputs to the factory, not overstaffing the factory, upgrades for better prices, enough teamsters and dockworkers, etc.

[suedenim]

I think the key is probably to be a capitalist first, Marxist second.  I.e., before redistributing the wealth, you need some wealth to redistribute!  

And like historical and current "workers' paradises," it probably helps if you don't allow anybody to leave....

[President of Parador]

And like historical and current "workers' paradises," it probably helps if you don't allow anybody to leave....

... and you'll eventually have to eliminate everyone in the intellectual and religious factions, since they pose a threat to state control.

[henry]

I believe that you get the best results by holding elections and not bothering with military control freakism. There is nothing wrong with the concept of a marxist democracy you just have to balance social security and exports carefully. My peoples tend to get very good treatment. I never bother with housing worth less than a country house (for students, orphans & retirees) and tend to have mainly apartments(workers) with houses(school leavers) and luxury houses(graduates) ,so I am well praised by the communist faction.

[SlickWilly]

The communists seem to be concerned with 3 things:

1- Nobody lives in a shack.
2- Everbody has a job.
3- Low income disparity.

Meet those 3 conditions and the communists will love you.
By paying the common-folk 3 and the soldiers 40 you were violating #3 and making them very angry.

BTW, I don't think the communists care if the people are in a luxury house, apartment, or a bunkhouse; they just don't want anybody living in a shack.

[suedenim]

One of the oddities about the Communists is that they object to the "Cheapskate" flaw.  It should actually make them happy (less income disparity), and it's probably not a good idea to have any salaries over $25 anyway if you're pursuing an aggressively pro-Communist strategy.

As a Commie dictator, you may need to placate your military with something other than excessively high salaries.  Just remember, all animals may be equal, but some are more equal than others!  Giving your generals and soldiers a little more access to the peoples' wealth (i.e., bribes), and steering them into good housing might be more important than in a non-Communist government.

[bear_e]

The communists seem to be concerned with 3 things:

1- Nobody lives in a shack.
2- Everbody has a job.
3- Low income disparity.

Meet those 3 conditions and the communists will love you.
By paying the common-folk 3 and the soldiers 40 you were violating #3 and making them very angry.

BTW, I don't think the communists care if the people are in a luxury house, apartment, or a bunkhouse; they just don't want anybody living in a shack.

this approach more or less has pretty much how it's worked for me. why it pleases the communists mystifies me, because i do all this to create a stable society and maximize income. the commies usually love me for it but the capitalists are usually OK with it as well.  pleasing the commies and the militarists is my top priority, followed by religious factioners to a point. environmentalists are almost always a minority group at least early on, and intellectuals are perennial whiners anyway; also, the last two groups will not likely rebel against you; the others will.

what i prefer to do is take what i call the "aussie approach" to setting up Tropico's society, wherein i attempt to make Tropico reflect the real world economic structure of Australia. Australia is a country that like Tropico is resource rich but underdeveloped when it comes to finished goods,  but unlike most Caribbean countries has a strong middle class and few people at the fringes economically. here's how i do that:

1. housing: i want a huge middle class and few rich and few poor. therefore i set up as many private houses as possible (regular houses, no country houses, the cost vs. happiness tradeoff is worth the extra $$$ to go for the better house) and more recently (thanx to suedenim's advice), i set up a few rent free bunkhouses for the orphans, elderly and unemployed. btw, i rarely ever set up luxury homes because they use electricity i could use for other stuff; but as slickwilly has already said, the commies don't seem to care about luxury housing anyway.

2. shacks: if i see a shack i set up a bunkhouse nearby and that shack gets bulldozed immediately. i want lots of tourists, because i want those yanqui $$$ and they won't like the shacks. shacks also alienate the people living in them; if you want an uprising fast, just bulldoze half of your housing and make the former residents build shacks.

btw, i don't make anything off shacks, but i get to collect rent on housing; another reason to bulldoze the shacks even if the rulebooks say it's not worth it.

3. jobs: i make sure nobody is ever unemployed; generally, if i find unemployed i at least open a corn farm to give them something to do. idle minds are the devil's workshop as they say; i don't want my citizens to be sitting around drinking and thinking.

4. income disparity: if you can get income disparity below 50% you will please the commies.

i generally set up 3 major pay grades, one for each educational level. college workers almost never get more than double what the average farmer makes; for example, if a farmer gets 10 pesos, other uneducated 10-12 or so; HS grad workers will get about 12-15 and college grads will make 15-20.

one exception to this is i always make sure the soldiers get high end pay (roughly the same as college educated) so as to keep their loyalty high. if i vary pay within those 3 grades any, it's only to manipulate the workforce for whatever reason (like getting people to work at some new work site, etc.).

5. pay: most importantly, i'm not afraid to pay my uneducated workers halfway decent; i make sure they make at least triple the cost of renting a standard house no matter what. if the farmers are living in decent housing they will remain happy.

by doing all this, i usually make commies, militarists and religionists - and some capitalists - happy all at once. and i don't make any kind of deals with either the US or Russia btw; i keep it neutral so as not to rile up anybody.

[udari]

If you think about it even pro capitalist dicta... I mean presidentes in Tropico are kind of Marxists, one of Marx main point is that the capitalist system exploit the proletarian by  paying the cost of living instead of the value of the work they realized, the difference is the profit the capitalist makes. This is a direct result of the fact that the factors of production (outside labor) are privately held. The solution is that the state own them, avoiding the exploitation of the workers. In Tropico the presid… I mean the State own all the factors of production (with the exception of labor).

Of course if you set your wages to the point were you are making a profit you are technically exploiting the workers, but you could see it as a redistribution of wealth to pay for housing, health care, education, security forces, infrastructure construction and the slash fund..  I mean secret military expenses.

Ps in game terms, if you are going for a communist government, don’t forget you can use the newspaper to increase the communist faction and its relations with you.

[RedSentry]

I've played the demo for the...30th time (only three more weeks!) and I'm starting to be a true Communist.
One thing I'm doing is having a complete economy based on farming. I have 20 farms! And I'm making a killing of it!

[Growler]

There is no private property owned and controlled by the Tropicans in this game, therefore there is no capitalism.  The so-called capitalist faction is misnamed, they ought to be called the fascists.

Also, an easy way to avoid trouble with soldiers and their maintenance is to fire them all 1 Jan 1950 and never hire another.  With no soldiers, the militarist faction will never grow strong.  This is a practical course if you truly care about the people because they won't rebel if they are happy.

Growler

[calm_blue_sea]

Karl or Groucho?

[Diego_de_la_Vega]

Karl or Groucho?

ROFLMAO, calm.....you just made coffee come out my nose, with that line. hahahahahaha

"I shot an elephant in my pajamas...how he got in my pajamas I'll never know."--Groucho Marx

[treedom]

I think the key is probably to be a capitalist first, Marxist second.  I.e., before redistributing the wealth, you need some wealth to redistribute!  

this reflects reality very well...as marx said, capitalism is one of the neccesary steps towards marxism...maybe that's why it didn't work for russia...they tried to skip there directly from feudalism...

[Blackrook]

Communism doesn't work because it ignores human nature.  People are motivated by advancing their own economic well-being and will not sacrifice this goal for the sake of a "collective good."  If the state eliminates private property, it eliminates all incentive to work harder than the minimum necessary to survive.

[El_Coronel]

So...

Communism is an unnecessary sidetrack off Capitalism's railroad?


What I want to know is how we ride the railroad to Utopia.


the benevolent despot in the rose-colored shades

[suedenim]

It should be noted that Tropico (and most high-level strategy games, really) depict absolute dictatorships in many areas.  The Presidente has absolute control over capital in Tropico, as there's no private property.  The interesting wrinkle is that Tropico simulates a more freeish economy than a lot of games by having a free labor market.

Marxist-Leninist doctrine did indeed state that capitalism was a prerequisite for communism, which is why Marx thought the revolution would occur first in the most developed countries, like England and Germany, rather than backwards places like Russia or China (or Tropico.)  One of the early debates in the USSR was whether they should focus on moving from feudalism to capitalism, or to "telescope" the revolution, and go straight from feudalism to communism.  Neither could really work, since people under true capitalist systems generally like them just fine, and aren't inclined to start revolutions.  But "telescoping" the revolution lets Communists maintain their hold on power, which is why they inevitably choose that option.

In Tropico, the most successful Communist will probably be a "NEPman" rather than a Stalinist, but both paths can work to some degree.

[animeguru]

I usually just ignore the military, they are nothing but a pain in the arse anyway.  I'll let them be until I get a message saying that there is a possibility of a military coup or they request a General.  I know then that they don't truly respect El Presidente and the deserve to be punished... so I fire all of 'em and X out their jobs.

You can avoid a large military faction by building newspapers devoted to the other factions, people will join those factions instead.  To hell with 'em.

[RedSentry]

Communism doesn't work because it ignores human nature.  People are motivated by advancing their own economic well-being and will not sacrifice this goal for the sake of a "collective good."  If the state eliminates private property, it eliminates all incentive to work harder than the minimum necessary to survive.

So, with this theory people would not work hard in capitalism either. Because with capitalism, the working-class is not getting any where! They know that they will never get loads of money, and live in huge mansions. Yet, they still work hard even though they will never leave their low paying job.

[Maus]

Hmmm, perhaps Tropico needs an additional faction just for  Labor Unions?  'Tis a pity that Marx didn't live long enough to see organized labor in action

[Growler]

So, with this theory people would not work hard in capitalism either. Because with capitalism, the working-class is not getting any where! They know that they will never get loads of money, and live in huge mansions. Yet, they still work hard even though they will never leave their low paying job.

Point out a capitalist society comprised exclusively of low paying jobs, and you may have a point.  In real life, some jobs pay more or have other benefits and therefore people maneuver to get them.  'Manuever' usually means 'work hard and be qualified' in a society not too riddled with corruption.

Motivation to succeed in capitalism isn't to have loads of money and to live in a mansion, it is about having a modicum of control over your life.  In a society where property rights are respected (clue: the common people have property rights), there is no need to be rich to have that control.

Growler

[RedSentry]

Point out a capitalist society comprised exclusively of low paying jobs, and you may have a point.  In real life, some jobs pay more or have other benefits and therefore people maneuver to get them.  'Manuever' usually means 'work hard and be qualified' in a society not too riddled with corruption.

Motivation to succeed in capitalism isn't to have loads of money and to live in a mansion, it is about having a modicum of control over your life.  In a society where property rights are respected (clue: the common people have property rights), there is no need to be rich to have that control.

But the average factory worker, secretary, peasent, nurse etc. etc. knows that no matter how much 'maneuvering' they do they will never get high up in their company.

[henry]

But the average factory worker, secretary, peasent, nurse etc. etc. knows that no matter how much 'maneuvering' they do they will never get high up in their company.

I worked on a farm for 4 years while studying a computer degree I now earn nearly 10 times what I used to earn as computer consultant. Capitalism works fine for people who realise the following:-
1. Look after number 1, A company or a government isn't.
2. If your career is going nowhere, get a new one.
3. You have to be personally dedicated towards your own goals nobody else can do that for you( To upgrade my skills I have study off my own back with qualifications, books etc that I have to pay for, at the moment I'm in between contracts studying Visual C++ 40++ hrs a week in the hope of getting MS certified ASAP).
4. Find a job that you enjoy doing and enjoy talking about.

Now marxism could work for me in the following ways:
1. Education is free.
2. Accomadation is freeish( I live in Fullham,West London rent is an appalling £145 a week)
But on the flipside.
3. Lower income ( I remember hearing about chinese pilots in the 90s getting $30 a week) and hence lower motivation due to the law of dimishing returns.

[RedSentry]

CHINA IS NOT A MARXIST STATE! They are a fascist state-capitalist Stalinist b*stard country. The USSR under Lenin and sort of under Khurshev was Marxist, and Cuba is Marxist. That's it!

Now that's that been cleared I can continue the debate...later, I have no time now.

[calm_blue_sea]

"ROFLMAO, calm.....you just made coffee come out my nose, with that line. hahahahahaha"


Well then Diego, my work here is done!


Anyway, just so I can say I'm on thread. Keep your communists happy and everyone else will fall into line. Meet the communists needs and you will have a good basis for a happy society and good economy. Hmmm, that was original, eh?


"Time flies like an arrow, and fruit flies like bananas"

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."