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MortalCabbage
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« on: 06/17/01 at 12:43 PM »

Every game I play, I've got problems with the intellectuals. Even in games where almost everybody is happy (happiness about 59 or so), my relationship with the intellectual faction is cool or cold, even when the almanac says they're content or pleased with the way thngs are going in Tropico. Should I build more schools or colleges, even though they would be empty? Tropicans won't follow education when there are no jobs requiring education available, so that can't be the problem.. can it?
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« Reply #1 on: 06/17/01 at 02:35 PM »

Intellectuals want education and liberty.  Build a high school and a college.  Make sure your liberty is high -- free elections, benevolent rulership, and radio/TV stations can help.  Good luck!
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MortalCabbage
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« Reply #2 on: 06/17/01 at 02:59 PM »

Problem is - I've got all that. For example, my last game. Free elections every time, I've got two high schools, one college, liberty is at 85, a TV station is at "BBC", a radio station is at "Radio Free Tropico",  the faction leader says he's content with the way things are going, but the relationship is simply "cool". The only negative thing he says is "Our people are so poorly educated". But all the jobs that require education are filled, and tropicans won't follow education unless necessary for a vacant position! In my population of 649, 79 people are college educated, 98 high school educated, and 290 people are not educated (the rest, about 200, are 12 years or younger and are too young to have had an education. Maybe it's a Tropico bug and they are taken into account when determining the not-educated/educated-ratio? They are listed as non-educated people in the almanac).

It's driving me nuts. Should I build useless buildings that require educated people? I've already got two empty highschools with 12 teachers each, two fully staffed rum factories, a jewelry, two powerplants, two armories, 3 newspapers, 2 radio stations, 2 TV-stations, you name it.

I really don't get it... All the other factions are at decent or close, it's just these intellectuals that I just can't seem to able to please.
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« Reply #3 on: 06/17/01 at 05:00 PM »

I'm sure you have the education edict already, so..

I'd go with the book-burning to drive people out of the intellectual faction and not worry about it any more.
(My goal is always to keep the largest faction happy and make the most unhappy faction as small as possible).
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« Reply #4 on: 06/17/01 at 05:16 PM »

Your dictator profile may be causing you trouble with the intellectuals, check on that.  Also, if you have Building Permit Edict enacted, intellectuals don't like that.  Another thing you can do is bribe the leader of the intellectual faction. Grin
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« Reply #5 on: 06/18/01 at 08:20 AM »

That's interesting.  First, you shouldn't ever need more than one high school and college.  You got me wondering if the problem is that you have so many teachers sitting around doing nothing...?  Maybe that's a trigger for the game to think that you're not educating enough people?  I'll have to try it.  I've never had a fully staffed high school or college, even with a 700+ population.  Three high school teachers and two college professors usually does the trick.
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« Reply #6 on: 06/18/01 at 02:54 PM »

bribe the leader of the faction, that might help
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« Reply #7 on: 06/18/01 at 03:08 PM »

MortalCabbage,
I have exactly the same problem.
I have 3 Colleges and about 6 high schools.
All elections have been free.
I have sensitivity and education edicts in place.
All liberty-enhancing Media has been built.
My military is probably average, or just below average.
The year is now 2065ish, and despite all of the above, relations remain steadfastly at 'cool' with these dadgumed intellectuals!!!
Perhaps it is a bug after all- my liberty rating is around 80%,
There really does seem to be no way to please these people,
and oddly enough, like you, the faction is "pleased overall..."
Toby Huh
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« Reply #8 on: 06/18/01 at 04:49 PM »

I once got 80% education and 50% intellectual respect... forgot how i got it though
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Metta.
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« Reply #9 on: 06/20/01 at 12:51 PM »

gigoplex if you mean bonus from the dictator background, probably with profesor (50%) and scholar(30?%) traits.
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2ninga
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« Reply #10 on: 07/03/01 at 04:59 PM »

I think this may depend on your character traits and how you came to power.  You'll probably never do very well with the intellectuals if you're an installed, pompous, moron. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: 07/04/01 at 06:16 AM »

     Intellectuals are sensistive to many many factors. I find that if you get the school up in 1st ten years and college up by 15-20, thats a good start. Make sure you never fix elections or for gods sake dont cancel them. The egg-heads must have close housing and available food stores nearby. Dont forget plentiful and nearby medical care. Using these principles I have havent had any trouble out of them in many games. Ive had games going into the 10th decade with more happy college grads than I knew what to do with. (Economy collasped due to overspending on housing and additional human services - 250,000 in on year). If you just can't make them happy, try the financial mode of newspaper if your economy is strong. People will flock to the capitalist faction, this has helped me get happiness over 60.
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« Reply #12 on: 01/19/12 at 11:01 AM »

... I've got all that. ... Free elections every time, I've got two high schools, one college, liberty is at 85, a TV station is at "BBC", a radio station is at "Radio Free Tropico",  the faction leader says he's content with the way things are going, but the relationship is simply "cool". The only negative thing he says is "Our people are so poorly educated". But all the jobs that require education are filled, ... In my population of 649, 79 people are college educated, 98 high school educated, and 290 people are not educated (the rest, about 200, are 12 years or younger and are too young to have had an education. Maybe it's a Tropico bug and they are taken into account when determining the not-educated/educated-ratio? They are listed as non-educated people in the almanac). ...

I suspect the problem is that you still haven't covered all the bases. You can have faction hits in all parts of the dictator profile. Some edicts give you faction hits. You need a low crime rate; but very few army members and a limited number of policemen.

From the Manual, "... they like to see a relatively high average education level for all citizens." I think the assumption that children\babies should not be counted for the ratio is invalid -- all citizens means all, IMHO. That does not mean that building unneeded buildings is a desireable corrective. One question is why about one third of your citizens are children\babies; that seems a rather high proportion. Another question is about the composition of your economy which seems to have a rather low requirement for educated workers.

Remember that the game is loaded with paradoxical situations\choices; so it is likely that not all factions will rise above "cool" despite good care and keeping of their interests.

Of course, everyone forgets what the Manual says so clearly. Each faction has a designated leader. This leader's personal happiness has a significant impact on that faction's attitudes towards you. ... pay special care to these leaders - make sure they have good jobs and houses, bribe them if necessary, and gnenerally make them as happy as possible. This becomes progressively more important as your rule grows longer and the population grows so that each one of them may influence hundreds of supporters each. For example, I have become convenced that the leader of the Militarist Faction (civilian or soldier) is the one who instigates Coups rather than someone in the army.
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« Reply #13 on: 07/29/12 at 02:29 PM »

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Care & Keeping of Faction Leaders

This is one of the paradoxes of the game. You can't please everyone.

Players go nuts when they have educated communists who wish to stay in uneducated jobs.

One of the problems is a lack of recognition that in the game world education level doubles as social class so there is nothing wrong with people working in jobs below their social class. Indeed the communists support that idea since they do not like social classes.
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« Reply #14 on: 12/13/12 at 02:40 PM »

The Poptop developers chose to consolidate education and social class levels - and to call them by education levels. It might be better understood by players if it were called by social class.

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=210.0

A "built-in" of the game is that education level stands-in for social class level viz
  • Uneducated = Low Class
    • Proletariat
    • Peasants\Farmers
  • High School = Middle Class
    • Petit Bourgeoisie
    • Trade Union Workers
  • College = High Class
    • Bourgeoisie
    • El Presidente is the only Landlord
While some individuals desire to gain education to rise in social class (and concurrently higher pay), others have developed class consciousness and desire to stay with the Proletariat regardless of their education. That depends on faction support.

Rebel-Yell's research during the Cafe's "lost period" discovered that Tropican educational instutions produce graduates with definite leanings toward specific faction support. The military and religious connections are obivious. The shocker is that the "General Education" setting is not general at all, but rather is tilted toward Intellectuals (including Environmentalists) and secondly toward Capitalists. Take that information and link it with the concept that an individual's faction support is probably the second (after pay level) most important influence in job selection -- and some of the fog about why El Presidente has such a hard time playing god with his citizens' lives.

Consider the jobs you are trying to fill from the aspect of which faction is likely to support that activity. That is to say, "Lose your preconceived class notions (especially if you are American) and start living in the game."



The Concept of Social Class

The concept of social class as "a division or order of society according to status is a very ancient one, the English word 'class' being derived from the Latin 'classis', meaning each of the "... ancient divisions of the Roman people". Servius Tullius, king of Rome in the 6th century BC, organised a classification system which divided citizens into five classes according to wealth".

The Marxist Definition of Class

Marxist-Leninists accept the concept of social class put forward above, but hold that a person's social class is determined not by the amount of his wealth, but by the source of his income as determined by his relation to labour and to the means of production.

"Classes are large groups of people differing from each other by the place they occupy in a historically determined system of social production, by their relation (in most cases fixed and formulated by law) to the means of production, by their role in the social organisation of labour, and, consequently, by the dimensions of the share of social wealth of which they dispose and their mode of acquiring it". (Vladimir I. Lenin)

To Marxist-Leninists, therefore, the class to which a person belongs is determined by objective reality, not by someone's opinion.

On the basis of the above definition, Marxist-Leninists distinguish three basic classes in 19th century Britain:

"There are three great social groups, whose members... live on wages, profit and ground rent respectively". (Karl Marx).

These three basis classes are 1) the proletariat or working class, 2) the bourgeoisie or capitalist class and 3) the landlord class, respectively.

The Landlord Class

Marxist-Leninists define the landlord class as that class which owns land and derives its income from ground rent on that land:

"Land becomes... personified and... gets on its hind legs to demand... its share of the product created with its help...: rent (Karl Marx.

With the development of capitalist society, however, the landlord class progressively loses its importance and a new class emerges -- the petty bourgeoisie. Thus, in a developed capitalist society, there are still three basic classes, but these are now: 1) the capitalist class or bourgeoisie; 2) the petty bourgeoisie; and 3) the working class or proletariat:

"Every capitalist country... is basically divided into three main forces: the bourgeoisie, the petty bourgeoisie and the proletariat". (Vladimir I. Lenin).

The Bourgeoisie

The English word 'bourgeoisie' is derived from the French word 'bourgeoisie' meaning "... the trading middle class" as distinct from the landlord class.

Marxist-Leninists define the bourgeoisie or capitalist class as

"...the class of modern capitalists, owners of the means of social production and employers of wage labour". (Friedrich Engels).

The capitalist class includes persons whose remuneration may come nominally in the form of a salary, but which is in fact due to their position in the capitalist class (e.g., the directors of large companies). It also includes persons who are not employers, but who serve the capitalist class in high administrative positions:

"The latter group contains sections of the population who belong to the big bourgeoisie: all the rentiers (living on the income from capital and real estate...), then part of the intelligentsia, the high military and civil officials, etc. (Vladimir I. Lenin).

It also includes the dependents of these persons.

The Proletariat

The English word 'proletariat' is derived from the Latin 'proles', meaning 'offspring', since according to Roman law a proletarian served the state "... not with his property, but only with his offspring.

Marxist-Leninists define the proletariat or working class as

"...that class of modern wage labourers who, having no means of production of their own, are reduced to selling their labour power in order to live (Friedrich Engels).

In modern society, "... the proletariat alone is a really revolutionary class" so that, in producing the proletariat, the bourgeoisie produces "... its own gravediggers". (Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels).

http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/Marxclass.htm
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« Reply #15 on: 12/13/12 at 03:10 PM »

... Free elections every time, ... two high schools, one college, liberty is at 85, a TV station is at "BBC", a radio station is at "Radio Free Tropico",  the faction leader says he's content with the way things are going, but the relationship is simply "cool". The only negative thing he says is "Our people are so poorly educated". But all the jobs that require education are filled, and tropicans won't follow education unless necessary for a vacant position! In my population of 649, 79 people are college educated, 98 high school educated, and 290 people are not educated (the rest, about 200, are 12 years or younger and are too young to have had an education. Maybe it's a Tropico bug and they are taken into account when determining the not-educated/educated-ratio? They are listed as non-educated people in the almanac).  ... I really don't get it. All the other factions are at decent or close, it's just these intellectuals that I just can't seem to able to please.

Toby: "The year is now 2065ish, and despite all of the above, relations remain steadfastly at 'cool' ..."

You are both outside the normal parameters of the game with length and population over 500.

Always the BUG as if the developers dragged their knuckles on the ground as they walked. You have been a very efficient manipulator by not having anyone working below their education level. So the paradoxes of the game give you a "gotcha." It's not unneeded buildings; how much time did you spend harassing a college level farmer into an "appropriate job?" What's the harm in having having people working below their education level?

Then we can go on about social class vs education in the view of the Communists. Don't suggest that they are anti-intellectual.
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