combat in Tropico 2

[BradC]

I was really let down when I discovered there was no combat gameplay in Tropico 2. The reason its absence was especially disapointing was that the games is much more realistically modeled than the other Age of Empires type of combat strategy games out there. For example when you see disgruntled pirates pick fights with people on the island, the AI and animation of these fights is very well done compared to Age of Empires games where soldiers just hack at eachother like rockem sockem robot zombies. Its also nice to see pirates board ships by walking onto them from a dock instead of just being sucked into ships beached on the shoreline. And of course Id like to see sea combat as well as land combat. The Pirate Hunter/Port Royale series of games do sea combat very well. Such gameplay would mean alot more maps instead of just one island and would fill in the dimention of this game which is now hidden in ship reports. Both Frog City and Pop Top studios say they make games with low blood and violence, but really the whole premise of Tropico 2 is built on violence. Just because you dont see fighting doesnt make this game non-violent, it just glosses over the violence.

[Severous]

I didnt buy Tropico2 for the combat - I brought it on impulse because it was cheap and hoped they had improved on the original island building game.  Because it was Tropico not because it was Pirates.

Im with you though on the premise of violence.  I also expected more than I got.  

I did get more control over the landward events than I expected.  I am well pleased with the game.

[Pablo_Escobar]

I think the game is well rounded comat wise other than a few details (see sloop thread).  I bought trop2 because of the first one also.  I wanted an island building Sim and thats what it is.  
If I wanted realistic pirate combat I would play Pirates of the Caribbean on X-box.  Very nice real time combat, unplayable game however.

*in bad Dr.Evil voice*
need the info.  I'm the boss here throw me a fricken bone!

[BradC]

And so -- what do you propose?  

I definately want to see sea combat. Even if I dont have direct control over it, I want to see the ships firing broadsides and boarding eachother. Take a look at the game Pirate Hunter as its very well done in that game. I want to see pirates invading other islands and having land combat against other pirates or colonial settlements. It would be nice if the maps were rotateable to get a good view of everything in combat, in Age of Mythology for example you can rotate the maps. Multiplayer would go along very well with a combat expansion of this game. There are lots of possiblitys on how combat can be played out on the map, the overall strategy of combat is already part of the game so its just a matter of integrating combat animations.

[Captain Carrrghter]

Even if I dont have direct control over it, I want to see the ships firing broadsides and boarding each other

Probably well outside the realm of possibility, without major revisions to the game engine...

As Severous said, this is an island building sim (and a good one) rather than a combat-based game.

The thing I really wish for is a detailed text report available in the logs, showing round-by-round combat results for ALL combats (including when I lose a ship ). It's slightly frustrating to lose ships without knowing what they ran into, and how to better prepare for such an opponent. But I'm a perfectionist and just never want to lose another ship, that's all.  

[BradC]

Probably well outside the realm of possibility, without major revisions to the game engine...

As Severous said, this is an island building sim (and a good one) rather than a combat-based game.

Yes it is a building sim, but it is also a combat sim and a large part of the game depends on your success in combat even if it is only read in ship reports. This could be made into an expansion of Tropico 2 so it would only be an option for people who would want it, as some people like yourself dont have an interest in that kind of gameplay. The fact is that combat strategy games like Age of Empire series are hugely popular, and there are very few games who do it well. I think its a great waste that Tropico 2 avoided this type of gameplay as I think they have a potencial to be forerunners in this area of the market with their very inovative micromanaged style of game interface. Tropico 2 *IS* a combat game, and they are simply alienating a larger market share for the sake of a purist minority. It is possible to do this with the existing game engine. Check out the game Pirate Hunter, it has a large carribean map like Tropico 2, but you can see your ship icons moving across the map instead of just placing them into sections like chess pieces. When you happen to stumble onto an enemy ship, then you get your normal 3D screen of that small area of the sea where the sea combat takes place.

The thing I really wish for is a detailed text report available in the logs, showing round-by-round combat results for ALL combats (including when I lose a ship ). It's slightly frustrating to lose ships without knowing what they ran into, and how to better prepare for such an opponent. But I'm a perfectionist and just never want to lose another ship, that's all.  

This type of stuff is really going backward to paper and pencil rpg type of gaming. At some point if Tropico is going to  expanded combat, its going to have to involve more graphic gameplay to go along with the increased management.

[Severous]

Hi BradC

I checked out Pirate Hunter as you suggestted.  More fighting and where speed of your own reactions can make a difference.  I would pass on such a game.

I also flogged Age of Empires on e-bay after the building bits were done and when scenarios became more of a combat game where  speed of reaction and button pressing became all important.  Knew I would never ever be interested in going back to it. Have steered clear of all the follow ups for the same reason - I play slow to relax - not work fast like all day at work.

Realism doesnt matter too much so i dont considier myself a purist. Indeed I like finding the loopholes in the game mechanics which bend reality even more than it already is. (100mph TomThumb in RRT2, 2 jobs at once in Trop2)

Your main point is about more graphics in combat.  Id just personally wish the games wouldnt go too far that way. If I wanted a shoot em up or a roller coaster I would buy those types of games - I dont want that in my Nation building or Train layouts.  When Im building or fighting I want to know about building effects, efficiency and combat rules not pretty graphics.

That said...Trop2 does it for me, just like RRT2 did..enough attention to detail but not total immersion in 3d engines and a million viewing angles.  Noting your original liking for crewing ships....heres a motley crew following the first officer onboard in a nice tight bunch.  It will probobly be the last time they ever set foot ashore as I rarely allow crews any shore leave between missions.

[BradC]

 You make some very good points Severous. And giving it some thought, I think you are right, directly controling the combat goes against the type of gameplay that makes up Tropico 2, it is an administration game and not directly controled strategy game. It would still be nice to watch sea and land battles, but alot more work for something you dont have affect over. Im glad you got to try Pirate Hunter and want to mention that the speed of ships in sea battles has been made very fast to make sea battles more a multidimentioned strategy where you are forced to antisipate positioning on the fly. If you have ever tried Age of Sail which stays strictly to realistism of old sailing ships, it is like watching a snail race, no exageration. I hope you have taken notice of the trading system in Pirate Hunter as that feature should be integrated into Tropico 2 to make up for Tropico 2s inefficient way of getting rid of surplus goods. The developer that made Pirate Hunter also made a game called Patrician III which is a medieval trading game with the same type of gameplay as pirate hunter. It is more focused on trading than piracy and allows you to build warehouses in the port cities as well as build "manufacturing" houses to make goods with the raw materials that you trade, and sell these goods.

[Severous]

Looks like it could be combat....but its not.  About as close as it gets in Tropico2.

[Sea Scourge]

Yep. That's the weirdest case of wind shear I've ever seen.

[Purple_Haze]

Age of Empires is an amazing game that requires you to think and resond to other people's actions. None of this pausing and checking out what is happening.

[Coconut Kid]

The thing I really wish for is a detailed text report available in the logs, showing round-by-round combat results for ALL combats (including when I lose a ship). It's slightly frustrating to lose ships without knowing what they ran into, and how to better prepare for such an opponent.

This type of stuff is really going backward to paper and pencil rpg type of gaming.

That's what's going on. If you really want to understand the game, you have to accept that you can't fly magically out to look at the battles as you could in "Age of Sail." You have to mentally picture the battles. BTW, The Age of Sail was an exceptionally crude, simplistic game which is\was not very historically accurate at all. And besides it gives the illusion of commanding a ship from a god's eye in the sky instead of from on the deck with limited information and less than perfect command and control. There is no strategy in it; it's a first person shooter in war game drag.

... giving it some thought, I think you are right, directly controling the combat goes against the type of gameplay that makes up Tropico 2, it is an administration game and not directly controled strategy game. It would still be nice to watch sea and land battles, but a lot more work for something you don"t have effect over. ... If you have ever tried Age of Sail which stays strictly to realistism of old sailing ships, it is like watching a snail race, ...

The issue is to learn the structure of the computer battle algorithm for the ships you send out. Where you send them; how you equip them, and the orders you give them. That's what wins the battles. What happens at sea is just a weighted decision logic tree with a little randomness here and there for flavor. It's no secret. The developers described it here and in the manual and strategy guide that comes with the game.

The problem that most players have is that they wish to learn gameplay intuitively with a few tries at playing. For this game you really do have to read the background.

The Pirate King in the game provides the where-with-all for the NPC captains to win and bring home the loot from the sea. In the magical mists of the game design, there are national admirals doing the same thing (without the same kind of captives) matching moves to put the Pirate King out of business.

IMHO, the game works best with fleets of the heavier ships cruising where the richest prizes are while some lighter ships explore and pull a few smash & grab hits on rich towns.

[Coconut Kid]

I think the game is well rounded combat wise  ...  If I wanted realistic [?] pirate combat I would play Pirates of the Caribbean on X-box.  Very nice real time combat, unplayable game however. ...

In other words, a first person shooter using ships instead of people. All swash and no buckle.