Communism/Capitalism

[vladimirlenin]

Although you can play Tropico in various different ways, I don't think there is enough differentiation between running the island in a communist manner, or a capitalist manner.

After all, paying people equal wages means communism in Tropico. Having a tourist industry means capitalism...

However, everything on Tropico is state-owned, because all profits go to you...so it could always be called state-socialist.

What I am trying to say, is that in a future version, perhaps you could privatise an industry. For example, you could issue an edict called "Privatise Healthcare". Then, foreign companies could set up health clinics. Although you wouldn't get the profits, the people may like the wider choice, and the upper strata of society might like not having to go to the same clinic as everyone else...

Also, if you are short of money, you could nationalise industry, and take it into the state sector. You may have to compensate the companies, but if you don't (like in Cuba), you could get a threat of invasion.

Obviously this game isn't solely about politics, but I think that maybe these additions would be good, and give the game more variety. Obviously if I was leader of Tropico, I would make every industry run by the workers...

[Captain Carrrghter]

Ahhh, yes, but in the real world, as in Tropico, the "capitalists" don't really care who owns the factories, as long as the bosses make a LOT more than everybody else.  

And "communists" in places like China don't seem to care who owns the factories, as long as they control the state.

So even in the real world, there's not so much variance as you might think.

Privatization would be an interesting game variant. There's an interesting thread on it somewhere--I don't remember where, unfortunately.

[KidKapri]

That would be interesting

[Coconut Kid]

... Privatization would be an interesting game variant. There's an interesting thread on it somewhere--I don't remember where, unfortunately.

I once posted something about three subsets for the economic structure of the game - all state ownership (which is the way it exists now), all private ownership, and a mixed system. One would be selected at the start of each scenario. The private and mixed systems would use some of the techniques of the RRT2 company ownership and RRT2 stock market features.

But no interest was expressed - at least no comments were posted. So I dumped it. That means, "I deleted it."

Perhaps that is what you recall.

[el_malo]

all private ownership

As much as I would like to see this... I do not know how it could be done.

Just imagine all the additional record-keeping the game system would be required to do.

Personally, I think the best that P-T could have done was to have 2-job staffing in buildings.

Let's say, as an example, a mine would have 8 Miners and 2 Bureaucrats.

Or, a Construction Office has its normal allotment of Laborers and 2 Engineers.

This would inflate the College-educated class.

[Brf]

Cafe Dave and I have both scripted stock-market-like features.... where the profits (and losses) of certain facets of the economy are funneled directly into the swiss account.... kind of like stock-dividends. Try Inheritance and see a choosable percentage funneled into the swiss account.

[el_malo]

Yes, but that's not the same as keeping a detailed financial record for every character in the game.

I think P-T took the route they did... was to limited the record-keeping required.

This is why food is free.

[cockney]

what about public/private utilities and healthcare facilities?

mentally, I am capitalist, moreover, an imperialist but my playing style is based on the communist methods

[robo]

I think in principle communism and capitalism are not so different, because people need to organize to get a better outcome in both systems.
A good example are farmers.
In both systems (capitalism and communism) farmers can be subsidized in different ways by government, if there is enough cash to be reallocated. Society has an interest in subsidizing to ensure food security and diversity and to establish some protectionism.
If farmers don't get subsidized, they have to set up an agricultural co-operative by their own means. They have to pay for a building and the employed people with the surplus of their crops/income.
Their could be a special building "agricultural co-operative" in tropico, which offer some variables for the player to change various things.
There is realistic domestic demand by tropicans and export. If the tropicans get a better income, they consume more food and can pay higher prices for food. So farmers earning more money can invest in fertilizers, tools, equipment ... to get more productive. Intensive farming consume less place than small scale farming without technology, which is a special challenge for small island states.
Farmers need access to credit (a commercial bank)
I don't think that a stockmarket is an option for a small island state, but there could be investors from abroad. Investment depends on various factors (security, good relations ...)
Now an important question: How much influence for the player in a privat sector concerning the placement of structures? My suggestion:
The player is placing transparent placeholders for farms (and other structures) somewhere on the island, which only develop if the conditions are fullfilled. For example: working force (tropicans with certain attributes), capital (credit), a market (domestic demand and export), a working building sector and raw materials.
There is need for other sectors beside farming and the building sector. (Where do tropicans get their clothes from? There are television- and radiostations, so there must be a shop to import and sell some goods like radios for tropicans, at least collective TVsets in bars. Furniture?)

[robo]

Just some more ideas for capitalism:
The government income are different forms of taxation (and development aid, credit), but if tropico had a own currency, presidente could print money  to stimulate economy with the risk of inflation (which is just another form of taxation). It would be nice to see the effects of money accumulation and rise in prices.

The rich, more influential people of tropico need to communicate, so there could be meeting place like a gourmet restaurant or golf course of the rich which could be a place for a president (the player) to gain influence and some new edicts.

[Privateer0]

It would not be a problem at all to keep detailed records of each Tropican's finances and model some degree of capitalism on Tropico. Population rarely reaches 1000 people, and crunching 1000 relatively simple financial data structures is a breeze for your computer - even for a computer you had when Tropico just came out. If you also consider that the financial calculations don't really need to be done at every frame, but could be done, say, once a month, it becomes ridiculously cheap in terms of computer power.

The reason such a system isn't in Tropico is because PT didn't design and implement it, not because it's impossible or impractical. We can't blame them, really. They've already done a MUCH better, deeper job with Tropico than most other companies do with their simulation games.

Still, a feature like this would be nice to have and I hope we will eventually see a game that implements it.

[Coconut Kid]

... The reason such a system isn't in Tropico is because PT didn't design and implement it, not because it's impossible or impractical. We can't blame them, really. They've already done a MUCH better, deeper job with Tropico than most other companies do with their simulation games. ...

You are probably correct.  The problem is that we are just standing around beating the ideas to death.

PopTop has just released a new game. Several months ago "they" fired the founder of the company. Tropico was from the beginning a "step-child" and not a prime objective. The latest release shows that PopTop has no commitment to Tropico. That is because it is not an independent company - it is simply a "design studio" among many owned by a conglormate called Take2, which is also called something else. What you have in hand now is all the Tropico there will ever be.

 

[Coconut Kid]

To expand on the previous post -

Check out the PopTop web site. There is no way to give any feed-back. So you wish to tell them you like Tropico and you wish some/all of the identified bugs would be fixed in a patch. Maybe you would even pay for such a patch.

Don't think that you can ever get through the game corporate environment.

All that corporate environment wants to do is sell bloody violence and sex to teenagers.

 

[JakiusCeasar]

@the topic. Non-state owned industry might be interesting to play with. Let's see...
privatize the builidngs. Maybe set minimum wage and set taxes of income and exports, and see what happens.

@CK what you said is true, unfortuantly, but it's true.
Too bad there aren't more companys willing to take risks by shying away from making profit-certain blood sex games

[robo]

I found some interesting theoretic reading from a german think tank, who wants to transform authoritarian forms of government and centrally planned economic systems toward democracy and a market econonomy worldwide. 
Here's a global map:
http://www.bertelsmann-transformation-index.de/28.0.html?&L=1
Here's the report for Cuba (Tropico? ):
http://www.bertelsmann-transformation-index.de/95.0.html?&L=1

[JakiusCeasar]

I got it!!!! But it may be a bit too complex

Socialist/Capitalist Tropico
By JakiusCeasar

1.Building ownership

In Tropico there will be building owned by the state and the corprations, even the coopratives. But all building would start as someting...

Goverment mandatory-buildings
these buildings/industries must be owned by the state

Palace
any military building
one port
consturction
teamsters
immagration office
diplomatic minstry
power stations (to keep things a bit simple)

BUILDINGS AND LOTS

this would be the differnce between state owned and private owned buildings. When you build a building, the state owns it automaticly. But, with lots, you would set a place where a certian building would be built, but only a fenced plot would apper until someone buys it! Then your laborers will consturct it. But who buys your lots?

>Foriegn corprations
>Lone Tropicans
>Tropican coopratives

You will set a price for the lot (remeber you don't pay the consruction price for the building, but you still consruct it, and pay laborer wages. If any of the three is willing to pay it, then they will and the building ghost will apper. And there you have it.

WHO ARE THE OWNERS

use the list above to see who can own, and a bit about them

Foreign corpations
your best friends and worst enemies. They'll go with all but hte worst conditons, but will treat Tropcians like crap and affects your relatiosn with a power (usually US) for better or worse.

Lone Tropicans
The least likely, if tropcians have a "purse"  or bank account to store money, then maybe one will buy that lot you're selling, and then pay employees and make a profit! They may keep thier jobs or they may become sole "managers" don a suit and tie and work at thier business, as a business manger, they may also work as  doing something productive, maybe not.

Tropican coopratives

these are groups of Tropicans that form a "alliance" of sorts, put money into a co-op fund (account) and use that for thier money to use in business. Together, they set  wages, fees and the like, they each get a wage from the corprate account, and behave with work like lone Tropicans.

That's good for now, next lesson will be how private business work, and your intervention into the private sector with taxes, minimum wage for the like.

[JakiusCeasar]

Private business functions

Now you got an idea of how business works. Simple! The owner of the business pay wgaes to employees, set fees, pay maintence and get the export payments. Simple? right.

[JakiusCeasar]

But where do you get your money. Simple, Taxes!

Taxes to set!

Export Tariff-You'll take x% of every unit of y shipped, where x is your tariff rate and y is the porduct being taxed. So you can take, say 32% of the renevue of  every box of cigars shipped.

Import Tariff-same as Export Tariff, but for imports. Duh!


Corprate Tax-Any corpration, onshore or off pays x% amount of it's income (note income and not renevue, a comapny with a loss will pay no taxes) to the treasury, this too high can cause capitalist resentment, alot of capitalist resentment and new business won't start up if there is no chance of profit

Income Tax-The goverment will take x% of every workers wages. If this dips thier salary below livng cost  this will make people extremly angry

Sales/Meal Tax- You pad on x% of the fee for an entertianment building to the cost to either the company or customer. If you set a 5% sales tax, people will either pay 5% more on each use or the owner will make 5% less per use.

Power fee- every company will pay x$ for every mw of power used.

Hotel Fee- Presidente can take x% of each hotel booking fee (without the bug) witch the tourist will pay no matter what this doesn't apply to the sales tax though.

Shipping and handling-company must pay x$ to have a state teamster move things from point A to point B. You can use this to decreasecost to keep a teamster or keep the workforce smaller (companies may hie thier own teamster)

THINGS YOU CAN DO FOR/AGAISNT PRIVATE BUSINESS

minimum wage-obivious

Free clinic-If a induvial cannot pay the fee for a private health care facility, governemnt will pay the fee for them.

Food Stamps-Person can't afford food? Government will pay for it!

Turst buster!-Break up a cooprative into smaller coopratives!

Food price cap-Set the max price corn can be sold. for the poor to eat.

Tomorrow, complicated math and the like. WooHoo!

[robo]

BUILDINGS AND LOTS

this would be the differnce between state owned and private owned buildings. When you build a building, the state owns it automaticly. But, with lots, you would set a place where a certian building would be built, but only a fenced plot would apper until someone buys it! Then your laborers will consturct it. But who buys your lots?

>Foriegn corprations
>Lone Tropicans
>Tropican coopratives

You will set a price for the lot (remeber you don't pay the consruction price for the building, but you still consruct it, and pay laborer wages. If any of the three is willing to pay it, then they will and the building ghost will apper. And there you have it.

Another proposition: There are different zones for special buildings as in simcity4.
Or if a tropican plans to build a special building  and all conditions are fulfilled a message pops up somewhere and the player decide where to build. (only shacks are build automatically by citizens).

[Coconut Kid]

I understand that contemplation of the game as it exists is not nearly so interesting as sounding off about one's fantasy about the game as one might "re-do" it. However there are some kernels of wizdom to be gleaned from previous thought.

Here is a post worth reading if you are interested in playing the game that exists:

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=9134.msg185840#msg185840

And here is a link to the original post so you can read the whole three page thread:

http://www.the-nextlevel.com/tropico/cafe/index.php?topic=798.msg7994#msg7994

[JakiusCeasar]

BUILDINGS AND LOTS

this would be the differnce between state owned and private owned buildings. When you build a building, the state owns it automaticly. But, with lots, you would set a place where a certian building would be built, but only a fenced plot would apper until someone buys it! Then your laborers will consturct it. But who buys your lots?

>Foriegn corprations
>Lone Tropicans
>Tropican coopratives

You will set a price for the lot (remeber you don't pay the consruction price for the building, but you still consruct it, and pay laborer wages. If any of the three is willing to pay it, then they will and the building ghost will apper. And there you have it.

Another proposition: There are different zones for special buildings as in simcity4.
Or if a tropican plans to build a special building  and all conditions are fulfilled a message pops up somewhere and the player decide where to build. (only shacks are build automatically by citizens).

Basically that's what I'm try to say.

You

a) Find a building you want on your island
b)Set up a lot where the building can be built
c)set a price, or reward it to someone
d)Wait for someone to buy it, and then building will begin

[Coconut Kid]

... Basically that's what I'm try to say.
You
a) Find a building you want on your island
b)Set up a lot where the building can be built
c)set a price, or reward it to someone
d)Wait for someone to buy it, and then building will begin

And when the building is completed, who will set:

• If a production building
  • wages of the workers
  • working conditions & firing of workers
• If a service building
  • wages of the workers
  • services offered
  • prices charged
  • firing of workers
• If a housing building
  • the rental rate
  • evictions
• Then the core governmental buildings
  • Will you allow contracting out functions, such as prisons
• Who may bulldoze buildings you don't own

.

I may be "picky" but does Sim City have individual people/units as does Tropico?

 

[robo]

And when the building is completed, who will set:

• If a production building
  • wages of the workers
  • working conditions & firing of workers
• If a service building
  • wages of the workers
  • services offered
  • prices charged
  • firing of workers
• If a housing building
  • the rental rate
  • evictions
• Then the core governmental buildings
  • Will you allow contracting out functions, such as prisons
• Who may bulldoze buildings you don't own

I may be "picky" but does Sim City have individual people/units as does Tropico?

 

Simcity is only abstract, the interesting part of tropico on a smaller scale is the people engine, which generates individual needs, attributes and actions.
The prices and wages (firing of workers ...) are depending on the law of supply and demand. The mathematics behind this are perhaps not easy, but it could be done with an somewhat simplified, theoretical approach.

[robo]

... Privatization would be an interesting game variant. There's an interesting thread on it somewhere--I don't remember where, unfortunately.

I once posted something about three subsets for the economic structure of the game - all state ownership (which is the way it exists now), all private ownership, and a mixed system. One would be selected at the start of each scenario. The private and mixed systems would use some of the techniques of the RRT2 company ownership and stock market features.

But no interest was expressed - at least no comments were posted. So I dumped it.

Perhaps that is what you recall.

Can you post a link for the thread?

There are already some capitalistic elements in Tropico. The hotels have "automatic" pricing and there's some competition. Hotels in a more beautiful environnement close to other entertainment structures or infrastructure (docks, airports) get more tourists. So the artificiel intelligence of the program can handle these things.
The player is less in control, but on the other side,a free market don't always react in a way to satisfy collective needs but rather individuel needs (for example profit for entrepreneurs and farms ...), so there must be new options to gain control and new aims for scenarios, it could be a new experience of gameplay.

[Coconut Kid]

... So I dumped it. ...

Can you post a link for the thread? ...

That means back in the day, I deleted the whole thread!