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Privateer0
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« on: 09/30/04 at 05:51 PM » |
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I realize, those areas are more profitable per worker once they get going at full blast, but they are so difficult to set up early! In fact, I think that it's a better idea, financially speaking, to first invest into a solid resource-based economy so that you can afford the start-up costs for good, profitable industry or tourism. Yet, the Capitalists complain as early as mid-50s about the economy's focus on farming and the like. Come on, Capitalists! The treasury is overflowing, the average wage is way above Carr. Avg., give it a break, people! Let el Presidente at least get people out of their shacks before the people start an uprising or mass emmigration. What do they care how exactly the island makes money, anyway, if the budget is balanced with a gigantic surplus? Phiew. That turned out more like a rant than I wanted, eh?   |
Don't hold elections, else what you rule will end up ruling YOU.
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Brf
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« Reply #1 on: 10/01/04 at 09:53 AM » |
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It is all about cash.
Factories add cash value to an existing commodity.
Tourism brings in paying customers from outside to spend money in our country.
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Dayvit781
Tourist
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« Reply #2 on: 03/18/05 at 04:05 PM » |
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That's true... capitalists don't care about a full treasury. They want that money being used. They want value-added since a resource based economy is too dependent on world market prices. Value added goods tend not to collapse in price as easily.
In game terms, they don't want you spending money on social services or leave it in the bank, just use the money to make more money.
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Mistah Kurtz
Peasant
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« Reply #3 on: 03/18/05 at 10:26 PM » |
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So true. The Planter's attachment to his estate, land=wealth, is old-fashioned and rustic to the Capitalist, who would rather bulldoze all those orange groves and build Disney World.
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Captain Carrrghter
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Sailing the wide accountancy
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« Reply #4 on: 03/19/05 at 07:27 PM » |
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to be finished after lunch. Long lunch....  I won't attempt to complete this, but I feel obliged to point out that the capitalists also complain if "elite" (educated???) Tropicans live in poor housing. An interesting question to consider is whether any of the factions' "pet interests" are actually mutually exclusive by definition, (as in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, to give a hopefully-meaningful example), as opposed to having limited resources available. Now in practice, I usually don't need (or even want) to keep all the factions happy, and many scenarios (or dictator setups) make it all but impossible. But could I do so if I wanted, and what would my island look like? In theory, I think I would have an island something like this... Tourism-based economy (environmentalists, capitalists) Democracy, "free" media (intellectuals) Lots of housing, relatively high uneducated wage (communists) Cathedral, as soon as I can pay for it (religious) No more, and no less, than the "required" number of soldiers, who are kept happy with good housing and high wages. (Militarists, intellectuals, and coup avoidance  ) Of course, how I'd actually PAY for all that, I'm not sure. |
It's fun to charter an accountant
And sail the wide accountancy,
To find, explore the funds offshore
And skirt the shoals of bankruptcy!
It can be manly in insurance.
We'll up your premium semi-annually.
It's all tax deductible.
We're fairly incorruptible,
We're sailing on the wide accountancy!
-Monty Python, "The Accountant Shanty"
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Brf
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« Reply #5 on: 03/19/05 at 08:01 PM » |
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The Capitalists also complain if you dont have a bank late in the game: "Is this a Marxist society?" Usually this complaint happens immediately after I check the Capitalist page to see how I am doing, and see that complaint on their almanac page....They will also require Upscale entertainment for the "Elites", in addition to the better housing.
The better educated ones are also the ones making more money in society.... otherwise it would be the intellectuals complaining. I am guessing that the game actually checks the service-status by education, rather than pay level....
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el_malo
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« Reply #6 on: 03/23/05 at 11:05 AM » |
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OK, if I understood this discussion correctly, scripters have NO control over what faction a person will belong to in a game.
A game will always have characters of various factions.
A scripter is not able to create a scenario that limits or excludes a faction(s).
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"Power does not corrupt people... people corrupt power."  "You must never ask, holding a hat in your hand, for justice from the government of tyrants, but only pick up a gun." -E. Zapata  |
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Brf
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« Reply #7 on: 03/23/05 at 11:09 AM » |
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A script can affect the "faction support" of any unit.... but that does not neccessary control which faction he/she belongs to.... Although I would guess that raising or lowering ones support it a particular faction would make them more likely to join or leave that faction.... I have never tested this, so it might not be true.
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el_malo
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« Reply #8 on: 03/23/05 at 11:18 AM » |
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What I meant, in my usual rambling mannner, when placing a character on the map, the scripter has absolutely no idea what faction the character will select.
This would also apply to immigrants created by the game.
Even if a scripter creates a scenario that heavily favors a faction... no way to influence who and how many characters belong to the faction?
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"Power does not corrupt people... people corrupt power." "You must never ask, holding a hat in your hand, for justice from the government of tyrants, but only pick up a gun." -E. Zapata |
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el_malo
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« Reply #9 on: 03/23/05 at 11:31 AM » |
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I have gotten things better organized in my head What I really want to know... do characters of a certain player classification (Uneducated, HS Educated or College Educated) favor (more likely to join) any particular factions? |
"Power does not corrupt people... people corrupt power." "You must never ask, holding a hat in your hand, for justice from the government of tyrants, but only pick up a gun." -E. Zapata |
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Brf
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« Reply #10 on: 03/23/05 at 11:43 AM » |
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I am thinking the educated are more likely to join the Intellectuals....
You can control factions a little bit at the beginning by adding certain jobs.....
Soldier, general, banker, professor, teacher, are very likely to belong to the appropriate faction... Also bishop and priest.
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el_malo
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« Reply #11 on: 03/23/05 at 11:55 AM » |
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Observation seems to bear this out... no hard facts on my part.
Characters do seem to make a fair number of "illogical" choices for a faction.
I was going to create a "model" and experiment, but, it occurred to me... how you set a random game up (Prez Attributes, Rise to Power and Traits) may influence how characters select a faction.
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"Power does not corrupt people... people corrupt power." "You must never ask, holding a hat in your hand, for justice from the government of tyrants, but only pick up a gun." -E. Zapata |
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artemais
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Hawaii's Pineapple King
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« Reply #12 on: 03/23/05 at 12:55 PM » |
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OK, if I understood this discussion correctly, scripters have NO control over what faction a person will belong to in a game.
A game will always have characters of various factions.
A scripter is not able to create a scenario that limits or excludes a faction(s).
I think you are correct in that your presidential attributes can effect your factions. As far as the above quote, the scriptor cannot *force* the placed people to be of one faction or another when placed. The scriptor, could, however, run a quick set of scripts to better reflect what was wanted. If I wanted to run an island with only environmentalists as the starting faction, I could lace people and run the following script: checkfrequencymonthend executeonlyonce loopthroughallunits condition unituifactionsupportcapitalist>0 generaleffect addto unituifactionsupportcapitalist -100 generaleffect addto unituifactionsupportenvironmentalist 100 In effect, this zeros out the the capitalist support and raises environmentalsupport to hyper-level. I could then do similar stuff to take care of the rest of the factions. Getting a mixed faction would be more difficult. The easiest way to do it would be to place the units and then determine what faction(s) they should support based on the job type...like this: checkfrequencymonthend executeonlyonce looppthroughallunits condition unittype=unittypebanker; (or you could use unittype=0) generaleffect addto unituifactionsupportcapitalist 100 Of course, you would have to subtract out other faction support as well. Once these scripts had run, the scriptor could then remove the script and start the map as usual. Of course, once in play mode, you would have no control over whether or not the people stayed in that faction, or who joined other factions. No control, that is, except through additional scripts, which is certainly an option... |
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Brf
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« Reply #13 on: 03/23/05 at 02:15 PM » |
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The number of plusses a unit has does not guarantee their faction. I discovered this while working on my new (unreleased) "Nerds" scenerio, where you try to keep the intellectuals happy.
The number of plusses they have for Intellectual exactly coerresponds to the Intellectual support page in the almanac. Each plus also coerresponds exactly to 25% in UnitUIFactionSupportIntellectual. IE: A unit with 25-49.9% support will have one "+", while a unit with 75-or-more will have three.
All of the units with two or three plusses were members of the Intellectuals Faction. Most -- but not all -- of the units with one-plus were also members. Some of the units with zero intellectual plusses were nevertheless members of the Intellectuals.
I chose dictator traits to favor the intellectuals. I do not know what bearing this had on the units' choice of being an intellectual.
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el_malo
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« Reply #14 on: 03/23/05 at 02:29 PM » |
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I think you are correct in that your presidential attributes can effect your factions. You got your post together while I was thinking about mine.  I wish you would expand on your quote above. Please.  Yes... please do. I suspect any action, you take as a player, is designed to have a very small, but accumulative effect on the faction selection process. |
"Power does not corrupt people... people corrupt power." "You must never ask, holding a hat in your hand, for justice from the government of tyrants, but only pick up a gun." -E. Zapata |
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artemais
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Hawaii's Pineapple King
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« Reply #15 on: 03/23/05 at 03:19 PM » |
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My understanding of the detractors is a bit fuzzy. I'm not sure if there is a negative level in addition to a neutral or "non-plus" level. If so, it is not displayed on the individual level.
I believe anybody wihtout any + is considered a detractor, and my understanding is that there is only a 0-100 scale, so that would exclude negative numbers. I wish you would expand on your quote above.
Simply that I think your attributes will have an effect of respect of different factions (ie a presidente with a green thumb attribute will get more respect from the environmentalists). I think it is the added respect from the respective factions which helps determine whether or not a person is prone to join a faction or not. My understanding would be that if the prresidente is a green thumb, he would then get higher respect from the environmentalist faction, thus giving a slightly higher chance of joining the environmentalist faction. I would assume this is becasue of the individual leadership qualities of the faction members, especially the faction leader. That's my theory anyway. Regardless of how it works, I think the attributes you pick for the presidente have an effect. If I am interpretting this correctly, I think Brf is suggesting this too, although note his scepticism towards saying that conclusively: I chose dictator traits to favor the intellectuals. I do not know what bearing this had on the units' choice of being an intellectual.
And yes, I agree with el_malo too: I suspect any action, you take as a player, is designed to have a very small, but accumulative effect on the faction selection process.
Man, too many posts to respond to ....I gotta quote everybody.... |
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Brf
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« Reply #16 on: 03/23/05 at 03:30 PM » |
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I believe anybody wihtout any + is considered a detractor, and my understanding is that there is only a 0-100 scale, so that would exclude negative numbers. Yes. Those with 0-25% toward a faction show up on the "detractors" line on the respective faction support page. Although, as I discovered and stated above, some detractors might still be members, counterintuitive as that might seem. |
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Brf
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« Reply #17 on: 03/23/05 at 07:23 PM » |
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Are you using UnitUIFactionSupportIntellectual to check for faction membership? Or is there another check that I am not remembering?
Yes. As I stated above: UnitUIFactionSupportIntellectual exactly corresponds to the number of plusses a unit has: 25-49.99 = One plus 50-74.99 = Two plusses 75+ = Threee plusses This also corresponds exactly to the Intellectual faction support page in the almanac which shows the people in four lines. The bottom line -- Faction Detractors -- includes some units which are members of the faction. The only way to see the actual members of the faction is by using the Info Mode tool as seen here in this picture. It will put an arrow over the head of every member of that faction. You can see from the first picture that Gonzalo here is a member of the Intellectual Faction. But..... when I select Gonzalo here in this second pciture.... you can see that he is actually a detractor.... Maybe he is a spy..... |
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artemais
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Hawaii's Pineapple King
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« Reply #18 on: 03/23/05 at 08:07 PM » |
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Maybe it is a fraction thing....you said those with ++ or +++ all showed up as supporters, but only most of + showed up as supporters.
In fact, I bet that's what it is now that I think about it.
One way to really tell is set up the script:
checkfrequencymonthend
loopthroughallunits
condition unittype=whateverGonzalowas
generaleffect setto eventvariable1 unituisupportintellectual
messagetypedossier
messagetext "[unit_name] has an intellectual faction support of [trigger_event_variable_1]."
You'd have to sort through a few responses to get to Gonzalo, but it would show if he has a support of close to 25. I think it would probably show as 25 if it is really 24.**, but that would let us see if it was close.
Brf, do you have the save game with Gonzalo?
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Brf
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« Reply #19 on: 03/23/05 at 08:23 PM » |
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Brf, do you have the save game with Gonzalo?
Yeah.... that snapshot was taken on Jan-1, 1950, in my unreleased scenerio, Nerds. Gonzalo is the leftmost Soldier. Interestingly enough, the righthand Soldier has one-plus for the intellectuals, but is not a member of the faction according to the Info view. |
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artemais
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Hawaii's Pineapple King
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« Reply #20 on: 03/23/05 at 10:52 PM » |
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Huh, that's interesting. I ran the following script on Gonzalo: checkfrequencyweekend loopthroughallunits condition unittype=unittypesoldier generaleffect setto eventvariable1 unituifactionsupportintellectual messagetypedossier messagetext "[unit_name] pledges [trigger_event_variable_1] support to the intellectual faction." It returned saying that Gonzao only has an intellectual faction support of 4, so that would put him way in the detractor side. And yet the faction support button clearly indicates him as supporting the intellectuals. I know the script works okay because the other soldier came up having an intellectual faction support of 26, right at the one+ that he had.... I also noticed that Gonzalo isn't sure whether or not he supports the communists. Check out these screenshots. You can see that when you click on Gonzalo, he has ++ for communist support. But when you check who supports the communists, Gonzalo does not appear. It appears that more research is necessary.... |
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Brf
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« Reply #21 on: 03/23/05 at 10:56 PM » |
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LOL!!!! Like I was saying.... faction support does not mean they support the faction Ouch! That makes my head ache. |
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Brf
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« Reply #22 on: 03/24/05 at 09:51 AM » |
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Yeah. There might be a slight problem with the data since it is still Jan-1 at this point.... But I discovered this problem when I was running this scenerio and noticed that the Intellectual faction count, shown on the faction-leader page, was growing larger than the count shown on the faction-support page.... quite abit larger half-way through the game.
It is too bad there is not a page which shows all the "faction-members", like the Info view (with the arrows) shows.... That would make it easier to investigate this.
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Brf
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« Reply #23 on: 03/24/05 at 12:51 PM » |
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So perhaps that Gonzalo has no arrow says more about his respect for El Presidente than his communist membership. No. If there is no arrow, it means they not a member of that faction. Just to see if I understand -- You are suggesting a single Almanac list page that would show the total of faction members but separated by faction? Right now, the faction membership page does not show the members of the faction.... It shows the respect each person has for the faction... the number of plusses they have for the faction. The numbers on this page do not reflect the ones that are chosen in Info mode, with arrows over their heads for that faction. Also, when you choose the faction off the respect page... when it shows you the leader and what his concerns are.... the number on that concerns page is the number with arrows over their head. Therefore when you are looking on the respect page, to see what the faction thinks of you, it is reflecting the respect numbers for the units with arrows, NOT the units with plusses. I was suggesting there should be an almanac page that shows all the units with arrows, since those are the ones you need to please to bring up your respect score with the faction. I am assuming that it was the game designer's intention that the ones with plusses would also be the ones with arrows.... but evidently that is not true. |
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artemais
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« Reply #24 on: 03/24/05 at 12:55 PM » |
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Since this is Jan 1950 (correct?), Actually, those shots were taken two months into the game, so those would be March 1, 1950. That still may not be enough time to readjust everything... ....but it seems more accurate to assert like CK: When one clicks Info Mode / Factions / Specific Faction, the shade of green of the arrows does NOT relate to the level of support FOR THE FACTION, but rather to the level of respect for El Presidente. So perhaps that Gonzalo has no arrow says more about his respect for El Presidente than his communist membership. This seems to be much more plausible given that Brf was running it late in the game and getting intellectual counts that were way off. |
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