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Coconut Kid
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« Reply #825 on: 07/07/09 at 12:32 PM »

Well of course a public school is going to teach you about all the horrible things America has done, all the problems America has, as well as all the problems with America's governing system -- it's the public school system! Take what these people say with a grain of salt. If it were up to half of the teachers in our system today, we would have taken Joseph Stalin's DNA and cloned him so he could run our country forever.
...

I'm sorry, but I have to call you on such "over-the-top" mythology.

American school teachers are and have been entirely representative of the attitudes of the whole population. They are faithful to a charge to educate their students by exposing them to a wide range of ideas.

When you discuss the "public school system" with Europeans, you need to take into account the extreme difference in the base and evolution of the different systems.

The Europeans by and large -- with the major exception of France -- use public tax funds to support private/religious schools. The complexity of the various ways of distributing the funds and the controls over the quality of instruction boggles the mind. The goal may be universal access and results, but the path remains confused and intermixed with religious attitudes. It is no wonder that immigrants of non-Christian faiths have problems socializing. Bavaria for example has a huge legal battle over taking crucifixes out of public school classrooms.

Meanwhile in the US, the evolution of public schools was in concert with the Federal restriction on establishment of a religion - or indeed endorsement of any religion (part of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of 1789).

US public schools were (are) universal, compulsory, and non-religious. Many state constitutions provide equal, non-sectarian and free education as a right and obligation of those under 18 years old.

The US ideal is for the public schools to governed / administered by the local community they serve. There are obivious tensions between local ideas and academic ideas about what is to be taught and how teaching should be done. Political attitudes about costs and the "work readiness" of graduates intrude on the classroom. Industrial manufacturing systems and/or military command systems overpower local control in the name of "efficiency".

But the foremost tension in public education in the US today is an all-out assualt by the partnership of Protestant Fundamentalists and Roman Catholics to divert education tax funds to their church schools. The mantra is "public schools have excluded God and can do no good, but private (church) schools can do no wrong."

Jimmy Carter, a born again Christian, established the Federal Department of Education when its essential, national function was well covered as a part of the Department of Health, Education, & Welfare for years before. That increased the overhead costs a great deal.

George W. Bush, a born again Christian and reformed alcoholic, got the "No Child Left Behind" law passed. That allowed the unneeded Department of Education to expand and reach down directly to mess with all the local school districts. While none would be left behind, every child would be sliced & diced and compressed into a uniform package of test results -- or else you tax hating local folks will not get "free" money to pay your school district graft. Pay attention Congresspersons !! The folks who elect you will expect you to increase their fair share of the Federal Money to be above the average ; certainly above what they contribute to the Federal money.
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« Reply #826 on: 07/09/09 at 07:22 PM »

It's nice that you give a opposite standpoint (maybe the best)

Quote
In Germany, are you legally a citizen or a subject?
I would prefer to say subject.

But the legally expression is "Staatsbürger" (state citizen).

(i hope i got it what you tried to describe)
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« Reply #827 on: 07/10/09 at 08:19 AM »

... (i hope i got it what you tried to describe)

I think you did. But I'll expand a bit anyway.  Wink

BTW: My little dictionary has a small variation depending on which direction you are going --
Eng to Ger \ citizen = Staats-Burger or Stadter ; citizenship = Staatsangehorigkeit.
Ger to Eng \ Burger = citizen ; Stadter = townsman ; Staat = state or government ; Staatsangehorigkeit = national / nationality or citizen / citizenship - or especially to British, subject ; Staatsburger = citizen.

It all has to do with a fine legal point about the theory of the composition of the nation. One issue I did not mention in my previous posts is the impact of the theory of federal vs unitary on the nature of citizenship. I should have mentioned the XIV Amendment to the Constitution of 1789:
The first sentence: All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
Before that amendment, a case could be made that national citizenship flowed from state citizenship although there is also a "full faith and credit" requirement which makes one state's action uniformly legal in all states.

If I understand correctly, Germany is now a federal republic. I don't know exactly how it was constituted under the Kaiser.

Perhaps it might help to quote a bit of the Colorado State Constitution to illustrate the point.

Article II - Bill of Rights ; Section 1 - Vestment of political power. All political power is vested in and derived from the people; all government, of right, originates from the people, is founded upon their will only, and is instituted solely for the good of the whole.

That seems to me to define the people of Colorado as citizens rather than subjects.
« Last Edit: 07/10/09 at 08:22 AM by Coconut Kid » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #828 on: 07/10/09 at 11:04 AM »

I apologize for intruding here.

I was a little concerned by the one-sided presentation -- as it seemed to me.

I shall try to restrain myself in the future.
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« Reply #829 on: 07/10/09 at 05:03 PM »

Jesus C.K. are you that bored that you went through my post to nit-pick?  Tongue

Grave dig much?  Tongue

You should have made mention (if you got that far) that the points you did quote, was what can be boiled down to as an "on-going investigation" which is what it was, and I made mention of that before hand. You could have asked how my investigation on that matter was going, to which you would have discovered that I had come to my own conclusion that everything i had found out was, indeed, humbug. While I am of the opinion that government has, and always will, use tricky legal wording to get it's way and work around the system of laws which itself has created, I ultimately found the information I researched to not be of sound standing and have dismissed it as such.

However, I think more research should be put into the 14th Amendment. I think a good case can be made for Federal/State citizenship in doing so. The geographic jurisdiction of the United States is very limited and well defined. Federal geographic jurisdiction is limited to those places where the Unites States is the sovereign. In the states of the Union, The People are the sovereigns. All power exercised by the state governments flows from the consent of The People. When the federal government is operating within a state of the Union, it must respect all the rights, privileges, and immunities of The People.

However, there are places where the people are not sovereign; where the government's power is not derived from the people, and where the US government (in the form of the Congress) is free to act much like a king of old, rather than a servant of the people. These places are specified in the US Constitution at Article I, Section 8, Clause 17:

~To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings...

The handshake section is found at Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:

~The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States...

Together, these two sections have been interpreted by the US Supreme Court to grant Congress the authority to legislate in ways that would be unconstitutional if applied to the states of the Union. See Downes v. Bidwel, 182 US 244 (1901), and Hooven and Allison Co. v. Evatt, 324 US 674 (1945).

This distinction in the scope and freedom of Congress to legislate might not be quite so onerous if Congress was required to declare, in writing, at the beginning of every bill, the section of the Constitution that empowers Congress to act, concerning each element of the proposed legislation. In that way concerned Citizens would be able to readily discern whether a law, or a portion of a law, was applicable within the states of the Union, having been authorized by one of the Constitutionally enumerated powers granted to Congress by the states. Efforts to provide such a simple and clear method of Congressional accountability have consistently failed to get to the floor of the House or the Senate for a vote, instead being killed in committee every time.
« Last Edit: 07/10/09 at 05:07 PM by Mr.Eastwood » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #830 on: 07/11/09 at 10:31 AM »

Jesus C.K. are you that bored that you went through my post to nit-pick?  Tongue

Grave dig much?  Tongue

You should have made mention (if you got that far) that the points you did quote, was what can be boiled down to as an "on-going investigation" which is what it was, ...

I'm sure you mean those as cheap-shots because something I said seemed a cheap shot at you.

Yes, I am bored because this board may disappear for lack of free hosting and because the publisher of T3 is treating me like the Gestapo would on their discussion board.

I did fail to mention that you were doing an on-going investigation, but I did not see a follow-up saying the original stuff was bad information. The edit function has been restored here, so you could have annotated the original post.

Grave digging is an entirely different subject -- consider the breaking news about the "Burr Oak Cemetery", eh?

Your post has lots of interesting legal points revolving around fringe areas of the law.

The federal district for the seat of government was deliberately excluded from the general protections of the Constitution because the writers were scared out of their minds by the impact Paris had on the French Revolution. Whether right or wrong, that was the reason and there has never been the national will or a substancial leader to drive for a redefinition. The Congress enjoys playing town council because they understand how to do that better than they understand real national issues.

I would summarize the other issues as a matter of unfortunate lack of foresight leading to indefinite language. The Supreme Court was very weak in the early years (before 1950). What difference would any of those decisions make in the face of today's "War on Terrorism"? The states need to undertake a stronger challenge to the Congress when it misapplies laws. But how can they be expected to do so when their legislatures are the training ground for the Congressional Clowns? What is the career ladder for political clowns anyway?

Citizens when excercising their franchise would be well advised to pay far more attention to their congress person than they do to the candidate for president. And maybe they should get to know their state legislators.
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« Reply #831 on: 07/11/09 at 10:36 AM »

Citizens when excercising their franchise would be well advised to pay far more attention to their congress person than they do to the candidate for president. And maybe they should get to know their state legislators.
I agree with this statement.
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« Reply #832 on: 07/14/09 at 07:15 AM »

We dont have the problem that we only pay attention to the "Kanzlerkandidat" (chancellor candidate)
Becauce he/she is elected from the ruling party, which where elected by the people.

Quote
Staatsburger = citizen
(did the american keyboard didnt got Ü Ä or Ö? Staatsburger sounds like you can order it at Burgerking , maybe its a hamburger with a little flag  Grin)
I think this is a simplyfied expression.
I thought "state citizen" whould be clearer
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« Reply #833 on: 07/14/09 at 01:13 PM »

They are not on the keyboard - as are not the Spanish or French letter differences.

I could do any of them1, but I can't remember how -- so I have to look them up from an obscure reference every time it comes up.

Sorry I am so lazy. I'll have to invent a new way for myself.

1 By that I mean I can make the letters by using special symbols; or I can activate a key board emulator for other languages. Both are a pain in the rear.
« Last Edit: 07/16/09 at 08:31 AM by Coconut Kid » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #834 on: 07/15/09 at 06:38 AM »

Which symbols are then on their (ÄÜÖ) places on the US keyboard ?
Ö is on the right side of L
Ä is between Ö and #
Ü is between P and +

EDIT i think i better Google it ^^

i found a nice side --> http://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/ml-mua/test/kbd-all.html
« Last Edit: 07/15/09 at 06:40 AM by El Meck » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #835 on: 07/15/09 at 04:36 PM »

Haha, yeah our keyboards are WAY different...  Tongue
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