Why do people like "exploration" or "maze" games?

I agree with you sggg - you can definitely make games that fulfill both desires, a desire for challenge and a desire for a daydream.

I should have said "why I /generally/ dislike RPG and exploration /aspects/". I've had a great time with games like Chaos Seed or Dragon Force that cover up their RPG-side with real gameplay.

The mix is difficult, though - Shenmue was planned, I think, to be a mix of RPG/Exploration elements and Fighting-game skill, but, the balance was thrown out of whack: too much exploration and overly easy fighting. Balancing game and experience is generally pretty difficult, if you're trying to appeal to a lot of people.

Have you played Shenmue II yet, Stone? It seems like they tipped the scales entirely to the other extreme.

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Originally posted by Stone
Why do you like hard games?

I mean, it's a good question, isn't it? There are enough challenging things out there in the real world that there's no real reason you should be spending time challenging yourself in front of a television. If you want something challenging, why don't you go out and try to start a business, or sleep with more women, or develop your chip shot, or whatever? And, is it healthy to have your need for challenge fulfilled through video games when there are so many better ways to apply your natural abilities?

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Because when it comes right down to it, a lot of us are lazy asses.

Seriously, videogames are more enjoyable for most people than starting a business. It takes much less actual effort and risk.

Stone- I think there is a clear difference between an easy game and a TV show or a movie. When you're playing a game, you're controlling what's happening on the screen (turn-based RPGs aside :D ) instead of watching it passively. A game like Metroid Prime may not be as challenging as a game like Contra:SS, but that doesn't mean that there's only an "illusion" of gameplay. Yet you say a game is only a game if it's challenging. I don't agree with that. A game like Metroid Prime is extremely challenging to someone who's never touched a game before, and it's easier for a skilled gamer. Does that mean that Metroid Prime is a game to the new gamer and an experience to the skilled gamer? And I don't know if you've played Prime, but it's definitely not a walk in the park all the way through. A game can be fun and challenging without being hard as fuck.

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Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Does that mean that Metroid Prime is a game to the new gamer and an experience to the skilled gamer? And I don't know if you've played Prime, but it's definitely not a walk in the park all the way through. A game can be fun and challenging without being hard as fuck.

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Yup, pretty much - I think a game can become an experience depending on what sort of gamer you are.

Also, some games become experiences depending on how you play them - think about what happens to a shmup when you play with infinite continues.

Wow, I think I agree with everything Stone has said, and disagree with everything burgundy said.

Yamcha:
I sorta liked Phanatsy Star, but I never finished it, because the mazes were frustrating and too much work. I beat PS2, but only because I had a hint book which told you exactly where to go.

When exploaration means exploring all the wee little branches of a maze it sucks.

When exploration means experimentation, finding hidden puzzles and crative thinking, it's a great thing.

I love being able to use creative thinking in a game. Normally, that's only possible when the player is given freedom to explore the game at their liesure.

What are these games that encourage "creative thinking"? I'd like to hear your examples.

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Originally posted by Stone
Ahah! Exactly. This is why I think "game" is the wrong word for Final Fantasy, and at times even for something like Metroid - the word "experience" makes more sense when you're trying to define them.

Final Fantasy does have gameplay, of a sort (equip better weapons, use Water on Fire monster, hit these buttons in these sequences, heal if you're hurt, manage your limit breaks or whatever they're called), but it's not difficult, and as such I don't really even think that it ought to be called gameplay.

Difficulty is the POINT of a game - it's why games exist, to provide difficulty. Providing a daydream (like many movies/TV shows) is the point of an RPG/exploration experience.

Another question then comes up - "What about games that are too hard? Should Battletoads be one of the best games ever simply because it's so hard, and if so, how can it be great when most people never got past the first hoverboard sequence?"

I guess what I would say is that if a game's challenge barrier is too high, then a player isn't ever going to be able to experience the skill-development that is what makes games like that enjoyable. I guess you want an initially accessible level of difficulty that somehow ramps upward towards being impossible as a player gets better.

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A fair point, though I disagree with your specific choice of Metroid. Although exploration can provide plenty of difficulty - just not the type you value.

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Originally posted by opa-opa
What are these games that encourage "creative thinking"? I'd like to hear your examples.

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Grand Theft Auto would be my obvious choice.

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Originally posted by Stone
The mix is difficult, though - Shenmue was planned, I think, to be a mix of RPG/Exploration elements and Fighting-game skill, but, the balance was thrown out of whack: too much exploration and overly easy fighting. Balancing game and experience is generally pretty difficult, if you're trying to appeal to a lot of people.

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Impossible, I'd say. Although I bet I'd love that perfect game.