Major League Baseball - Red Sox WS champs XD

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

No. It simply means when you chant 1918 we chant 2004.

Even if we lose.

I'm not saying we've accomplished anything in particular (besides the greatest comeback ever, but y'know thats irrelevant apparently) I'm saying your team yelling that stupid chant at us, is gonna seem awful stupid after this series.

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If you lose the world series and chant 2004 what does that mean? We'll chant 2003. Or 1999. Or Aaron Boone, or 19-8, or whatever. Chanting 2004 means nothing, for the first time EVER you've beaten the Yankees in a meaningful game. I've got a championship as recently as 2000, been to the world series in 2001 and 2003 (Killing you on the way). The Red Sox fan doesn't have a chant that hurts to a Yankee fan. We win too often and you've only once now ever gotten in our way. We've spent a century either beating you or watching you choke in the World Series game 7. We did set a record for most runs scored off a team in the postseason EVER against you this year, and after game 3 your fans were ready to give up on their team forever. Honestly, what can you say?

The greatest comeback ever? You were FAVORED to win the series before it started, YOU choked away the first 3 games including a record 19-8 beating at Fenway. It's fun to run around calling it the worst choke in sports history or whatever but be realistic. Your choke is what made our choke possible in the first place, we lost in 7 games just like everyone predicted we would. We didn't have the pitching. 1986 you had a 2-0 lead IN THE WORLD SERIES on a team you were supposed to annhiliate, THAT was a true chokejob. Being up 14 games in mid August, 1978 and NOT EVEN MAKING THE PLAYOFFS was a true chokejob. Look at every other team that was down 3-0 in a seven game series. It's only happened 25 times, and every other time the team up 3-0 was supposed to win the series before it started. You choked away 3 games then won in 7 games anyway like you were supposed to in an ALCS, good job. You've got a ring to win, or else it's no different than 2003 was for us.

2003 was not a successful Yankee year, we didn't win it all. If you don't win the world series after FINALLY getting past the Yankees, this wasn't a successful year for you. To a real Red Sox fan it will sting that you actually had your shot, you got past the Yankees, and STILL couldn't close the deal. If you win it all this year at least you'll be on the scoreboard, it's 26 to zero right now P.B. (Post-Bambino).

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Originally Posted by burgundy

They're overpaid. They put up decent offensive numbers and flash zero leather.

There's no such things as intangibles or clutch. Your Yankees proved this.

You guys have been listening to Buck and McCarver too long.

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We proved there's no such things as intangibles or clutch players by winning 4 championships with intangibles and clutch players, then losing to the Red Sox because of non-clutch players like Kevin Brown and Tom Gordon?

Ahahaha, Spo, man, what's up? There is a thread about this on Insult, too. What is your e-mail address/IM, whatever? I haven't talked to you in a while.

The thing that always got Red Sox fans was that the Red Sox always lost to the Yankees when the chips were down - every single time. That's where the 'curse' stuff came from, the fact that the Yankees were essentially the Red Sox's daddies, what Pedro said. That nationwide belief in the curse got to the players too - I think you could see it in the first three games of the series. How can you blame them, after Dent, Hendu, 14 games back, Boggs, Clemens, whatever else. Schilling goes down in a completely unexplainable way that seems to cripple the Red Sox the moment they go up against their most important rivals - it made it seem as if the Red Sox really were cursed. The Red Sox players follow that up by simultaneously all choking at once - they lost their confidence. It wasn't until the rollercoaster of game 4, and getting to Mariano, that they began to believe again that they could win.

The Yankees, historically, are a better team than the Red Sox. They deserved every championship win they got over the last decade. The 2004 Yankees team is a hollow bullshit shell of the 1998 Yankees team, and that's mostly Steinbrenner's fault, because he's insane. 26 championships to 0, true.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that this comeback in this year's ALCS has essentially ended the power of the Yankees' mystique over the Red Sox. This was a victory over Yankees mystique and aura. No Red Sox player is going to watch one of his teammates come up lame and start wondering whether the 'curse' is true, now, not after proving that the Red Sox can come back after being 3 games down. The Yankees have gone from being the monkey on the Red Sox's back to just being a very worthy rival in their division.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

There's no such things as intangibles or clutch. Your Yankees proved this.

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That's because our Yankees had no intagibles or clutch players. Or certainly not enough of them. That's part of the problem.

Put someone else in Ortiz's shoes for those hits. Now see if you win the series. That was "clutch"

Hey man, congratulations on the Red Sox. Email's same as always, ce at hotmail.

Absolutely, David Ortiz is a clutch player and that's why the Red Sox won. Schilling, as much as I LOATHE him, is a clutch player. If you think there's no such thing as clutch players you haven't been watching baseball very long.

Well, A-Rod, Jeter, Manny, they were all overpaid because they got their contracts during a few years when everyone was being overpaid. Compare them to Albert Belle.

But, if you want to compare relative value, I think Jeter is overpaid compared to Manny (maybe not A-Rod). Neither Jeter nor Manny produced this playoffs, both hit terribly and had a few defensive fuckups, but Manny's offensive value (40+ HRs, near AL batting title averages, awesome OBP) outweighs whatever intangible benefits Jeter provides as the Yankees captain. Jeter is a great player and an awesome competitor, but he's doesn't provide the sort of numbers I think you need to see from a player getting paid that much, even if he did get his contract during a boom year for salaries.

As much as I hate to say it, clutch players do exist. However, I think a better word for 'clutch' is 'confident' - players confident enough to perform no matter what situation they're in. Schilling tears an ankle, he gets that bitch sewn up and pitches the game of his life against the Yanks (one of the most incredible relatively unimportant things I've ever seen). Ortiz wins two elimination games. Rivera gets the win 99% of the time (is Rivera now clutch almost all of the time, but not quite clutch when it counts - after 2001, after this year? I feel bad for the guy.) Jeter is clutch. Pedro has not been clutch since 1999.

Now, I think there's a good reason why the Yanks tend to have so many clutch players - it's called Yankees mystique. Yankees players come into the organization expecting to win - they look at their uniform and they think 26 championships, Babe, Mick, Mr. October, whatever else. The organization gives them confidence, a confidence that you won't have when you're with the Marlins or the Rockies, and that confidence sticks with the players and gets rid of that nagging voice ("you're going to lose") in the back of their head when they're down 4-2. Just being able to think "No, we can't lose, we're the Yankees" gives players the extra bit of concentration they need to turn foul balls into base hits. Winning begets winning.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

It makes a big difference. Even if we lose. Personally I feel free as can be right now about the Sox. I hope we win, but it won't crush me in the least, because for once as a red sox fan, I don't have to put up with it from Yankee's fans.

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That's more important than winning a WS for the first time since WWI?

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Originally Posted by Melf

That's more important than winning a WS for the first time since WWI?

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Yes, in a sense. Look, we all understood that no matter how good the Red Sox were in any given year, they were probably going to end up having to go through the Yankees to get to the world series, based on the Yanks' commitment to winning. The Yankees, up until Wednesday, had ALWAYS beaten the Red Sox when they needed to. ALWAYS. If the Yankees ALWAYS beat the Red Sox, then how were the Red Sox going to ever make it to the World Series again (with the wildcard in place?)

No Red Sox fan was stupid enough to think that the Red Sox can't EVER field a team good enough to take four games from whatever the NL can come up with - if the Red Sox keep fielding good teams, then they'll eventually beat the NL's product, as a matter of averages. But, a lot of Red Sox fans were stupid enough, in the back of their minds, to think that beating the Yankees might just be impossible. THAT was the meat of the curse.

It's not over entirely yet, not until we win a WS, but we've proven that we can take care of the Yankees-part of winning a WS, and that was the thing that always concerned Boston fans most.

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The greatest comeback ever? You were FAVORED to win the series before it started, YOU choked away the first 3 games including a record 19-8 beating at Fenway. It's fun to run around calling it the worst choke in sports history or whatever but be realistic. Your choke is what made our choke possible in the first place, we lost in 7 games just like everyone predicted we would. We didn't have the pitching. 1986 you had a 2-0 lead IN THE WORLD SERIES on a team you were supposed to annhiliate, THAT was a true chokejob. Being up 14 games in mid August, 1978 and NOT EVEN MAKING THE PLAYOFFS was a true chokejob. Look at every other team that was down 3-0 in a seven game series. It's only happened 25 times, and every other time the team up 3-0 was supposed to win the series before it started. You choked away 3 games then won in 7 games anyway like you were supposed to in an ALCS, good job. You've got a ring to win, or else it's no different than 2003 was for us.

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I don't know about this. The Red Sox were barely favored over the Yankees, and everyone underestimated the Yankees, anyways. It's saying something that the Yanks could win the division and still be the underdog against the Red Sox. Going up 3 games, with one game a 19-8 win, and then losing four in a row is the definition of a true chokejob - Spo, you've got to admit that it's historically bad. Playoffs, against your team's most hated rival, go up 3 games, lose four in a row - that is the worst choke ever. And, I don't think a choke is a choke until you lose a series.

Stone: I totally disagree, yes Manny's a fantastic hitter but he's a braindead liability in left field. The Red Sox put him on WAIVERS in the offseason because of his contract. Jeter's homegrown and gets 19 million to lead by example and produce in the postseason, which he does. His postseason numbers are off the charts. Jeter didn't have a great ALCS but it was much better than Manny's, Manny had ZERO rbi's in the series. Jeter started a few rallies, had a HUGE hit in game 5 and made a great defensive play in game 7. In a year where Manny gets 20 a year and Arod gets 25 a year, Jeter at 19 a year ON THE YANKEES is worth it. Jeter's value to the Yankees is almost impossible to measure.

For years Yankee fans have had to hear "Jeter's so overrated, Nomar's better, A-Rod in his place would have won even more championships". This year finally proved Jeter's case. Jeter comes out of the stands with a bloody face after diving in to catch a ball in a regular season game while Nomar's pouting on the bench like a bitch. A-Rod tries to slap the ball out of Arroyo's hand after Jeter starts the whole rally in the first place by battling to get a base hit and then yelling at the team to wake up from first base.

The Red Sox put him on waivers because he fucked up last year. He got the message and became perhaps the most liked player in the Red Sox clubhouse. You are definitely right that Jeter proved that he was better than Nomar this year - Nomar is a sissy. Jeter made a couple of defensive errors this postseason, right? I think his D is way overrated - you leap into the stands one year and then all of a sudden you're Doug Mztypltzkwcz for the rest of your career.

See, Spo is a real Yankees fan, and real Yankees fans get a bad rap because of all of the Yankee fan assholes who don't know anything about the team, and like to wear 1918 shirts and talk about how "the Babe is going to pull them through".

Hell, I bet one of my employees this - if the Red Sox won, I'd shave off my playoff beard. If the Yanks won, he'd shave off his goatee, just a dumb, random, off the cuff bet. We made the bet after the Yanks were up 3-0. He made the bet probably because he never thought in a million years the Red Sox would come back, but he hasn't shaved his beard off yet. That represents bad Yankees fans to me. The place I work is full of them - taunting me constantly last week, and then being quiet or sulking the day afterwards. Half the people in the building wore Yankees gear Wednesday morning - I saw a single hat the day afterwards. You wear your stuff after a big loss like that to show you're still a fan.

The other thing that got me about this ALCS was the fact that none of the stuff that always happens to the Red Sox happened to the Red Sox this year. First, it would have been like the Red Sox to go up 2 games (maybe 3) against the Yanks. The two Ortiz home runs in game 4 and game 5 were the sort of crushing blows a Yanks team would deliver. That splits-catch Mientikevkzkslkthiz made at the end of game 7 was the sort of catch no Red Sox player has ever made - it should have been an error that scored a run.

Think about it - our manager put Wakefield in in the 13th inning of an elimination game, and he kept Varitek, our non-knuckler-catching catcher in. Classic Red Sox move, check. Our catcher gets 3 PASSED BALLS. 3 PASSED BALLS. I wanted to kill myself. The Yankees have Sheffield up, and somehow they forget to send him after 3 FUCKING PASSED BALLS. That is the sort of bonehead-avoidable-coaching move that leads to Yankees wins and destroyed Red Sox careers, and yet, the Red Sox ended up winning. Bizzare stuff.

Spo - what do you think about Torre's job this year? That was one of the most surprising things about the series - I think he fucked up a lot. He got outmanaged by Francona.

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Originally Posted by Stone

Yes, in a sense. Look, we all understood that no matter how good the Red Sox were in any given year, they were probably going to end up having to go through the Yankees to get to the world series, based on the Yanks' commitment to winning. The Yankees, up until Wednesday, had ALWAYS beaten the Red Sox when they needed to. ALWAYS. If the Yankees ALWAYS beat the Red Sox, then how were the Red Sox going to ever make it to the World Series again (with the wildcard in place?)

No Red Sox fan was stupid enough to think that the Red Sox can't EVER field a team good enough to take four games from whatever the NL can come up with - if the Red Sox keep fielding good teams, then they'll eventually beat the NL's product, as a matter of averages. But, a lot of Red Sox fans were stupid enough, in the back of their minds, to think that beating the Yankees might just be impossible. THAT was the meat of the curse.

The Red Sox were barely favored over the Yankees, and everyone underestimated the Yankees, anyways. It's saying something that the Yanks could win the division and still be the underdog against the Red Sox. Going up 3 games, with one game a 19-8 win, and then losing four in a row is the definition of a true chokejob - Spo, you've got to admit that it's historically bad. Playoffs, against your team's most hated rival, go up 3 games, lose four in a row - that is the worst choke ever. And, I don't think a choke is a choke until you lose a series.

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You're not quite on target with the curse thing. The curse only involves the Yankees because they were the team the Red Sox sold Babe Ruth to, in recent years the Yankees became more a part of it because they knocked out the Red Sox in 99 and last year. The curse is that they will never win the world series again because they slighted Babe Ruth and sold him after he won them the series in 1918. In 1948 the Yankees weren't in the Red Sox way and they lost to the Cardinals in 7, everyone said it was because of the curse. In 1967 the Yankees were one of the worst teams in baseball and the Red Sox lost again to the Cardinals in 7, everyone said it was the curse. The Yankees sucked in 1975 and the Red Sox lost to the Big Red Machine in 7 games, because of the curse. The Yankees were awful when the Red Sox pulled the REAL biggest chokejob in history in 1986 when the ball goes through Buckner's legs and the heavy underdog Mets beat them in game 7, because of the curse.

The Curse is that the Red Sox can't win the World Series because they sold Babe Ruth, not because Yankee mystique keeps them from winning. The playoff format changed in 1995 and it became possible for the Red Sox to play the Yankees in the playoffs even if they lost the division to them, that's when everyone really started putting the modern Yankees into it. The meat of the curse throughout history is that the Red Sox can't win the World Series, almost every year they went to the World Series the Yankees blew ass.

The Red Sox were a lot more than barely favored over the Yankees before the series started, because of one reason: Pitching. The Yankees went into the series with Brown hurt, El Duque hurt, Vasquez with totally fucked up mechanics and possibly hurt, Jon Lieber a total question mark and Mussina being solid. Their bullpen was exhausted because all year the starters sucked. On the other hand, the Red Sox had the great Schilling-Pedro 1-2 punch plus solid starters like Tim Wakefield (death on the Yankees). The definition of choking is losing when you're supposed to win. Vegas had the Red Sox in 6 games.

The Yankees got lucky with Schilling falling apart in game 1, Mussina was brilliant, and the Yankee bullpen tried to give it up anyway but Rivera came in and saved the game with the tying run on third base in the eighth.

They beat Pedro in game 2 because Lieber pulled the game of his life out of his ass, and Rivera came up huge again as usual to save the game.

They massacred the Red Sox in game 3, 19-8, overshadowing the fact that Brown and Vasquez gave up 8 runs and sucked, and John Olerud (the unsung hero of game 3) got injured and was out for the year. Tony Clark, the human strikeout machine and the Yankee's fourth string first baseman, now had to play everyday in his place.

The Yankees somehow cobbled together a one run lead with an injured El Duque gutting out a game, and Mariano Rivera legitimately blew the save by walking Millar followed by the Red Sox manufacturing the tying run. They then won the game by having a superior bullpen, outside of Rivera, and Ortiz.

Game 5 their only solid starter pitched another great game and Tom Gordon, a career choke artist, puked in the bullpen then came in and gave it all away, putting Rivera in an impossible situation (first and third, NO outs, 1 run lead). Rivera retires all 6 hitters he faces, gets a gay blown save. Again, Ortiz beats a shitty Yankee bullpen.

Game 6 Schilling pitches a gutty 7 innings and Jon Lieber does his best, but pitches to his ability (7 innings 4 runs). At the end of the game the Yankees mount a rally off Keith Foulke but Tony Clark eventually comes up instead of John Olerud, Clark inevitably strikes out.

Game 7 Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez, like in game 3, give up 8 runs. This time the Red Sox don't give up 19 runs unfortunately and the Yankees lose.

My point is that, if you actually look at the games, the Yankees should not have won. They didn't have nearly enough pitching and only had a 3-0 lead in the first place because of flukes (Schilling mysteriously blows up game 1 and Jon Lieber pitches better than even his mother will admit he has any business pitching game 2). The Red Sox were the better team and they won the series, if the 1996-2000 Yankees were up 3-0 and lost then I couldn't argue against it being a huge choke. This wasn't a real Yankee team, anyone who knows me knows I HATED this team's pitching ever since Steinbrenner let Pettite leave last December.