Recommend me some graphic novels!

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Originally Posted by Kaneda

Pretty much. I don't see how any grown adults can get any enjoyment out of modern superhero comics, especially Marvel stuff. Moore and Miller and a few others have been able to sneak some quality stuff in there, but all the stories are boring and for little boys. Comics mean a lot to me, but I feel like I've read all of the best ones already so I've moved on to real books for the good shit.

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I don't know that I agree - I think alot of the best comics ever have been superhero stories. The hero myth is archetypal, symbolic, representational of the synthesis of the spirit. In the hands of a guy like Grant Morrison, who gets that and treats it all like hermetic alchemy, the superheroic characters lend a transubstantiative teleology to the story.

Even his Justice League stories had a metaphysical sub(or should that be meta?)narrative; he's writing Superman as Apollo and subversively (well, if you're not paying attention, anyway) initiating the reader into the 4-colour equivalent of a hellenic mystery cult. Look up his ideas on comics as hypersigils. His notions of superheroes as antediluvian imago line up almost exactly with Carl Jung's concepts of the archetypes as foundations of the unsconscious.

But yeah, for your average writer who's just trying to show Underoos Man can beat up Dr. Crime and spewing as much sexual frustration and power fantasy onto the page as possible - or worse, trying to blandly imitate some action movie or tv show - it really sucks. But that has as much to do with the bulk of the audience as anything else. More people would rather watch Jim Lee draw the same three scowling figures over & over again (with tons of detail !!") than read Heavy Liquid.

Mostly I just hate the X-Men because the over-complex plots stopped making sense 15 years ago & can only be followed if you buy 22 crappy X-Men comics a month, and the characters are largely sulky crypto-pubescents going through the endless motions of a nobody-in-highschool-likes-me ("a world that hates and fears us!") subnarrative.

Even still, I guess there's nothing wrong with reading something lighter if you're just after escapism. Everyone needs that from time to time.

Yea, don't get me wrong, I think the superhero story has a lot to work with, as Moore showed everyone in the 80s. Miracleman did it best before Watchmen and really nails a lot of the adult themes that can be discussed. Dr. Gargunza is the corniest villian you can find, but Moore turns him into something human and complex. That's one thing I love about the medium, it's still so untapped and unrealized, it just needs some talent behind it, which Marvel doesn't seem to want to employ.

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Originally Posted by Kaneda

That's one thing I love about the medium, it's still so untapped and unrealized, it just needs some talent behind it, which Marvel doesn't seem to want to employ.

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Pick up some Bendis/Maleev Daredevil.

Word.
People say Bendis sucks, and they couldn't be more wrong.
Also, for every shitty book Marvel has out, DC has two. DC really needs to get their ass in gear. I hate how they've become Profit first, Character last. I point you to Rebirth and the upcoming Crisis. Personally I thought Kyle Rayner was a mcuh better character than Hal, and Hal had no reason to come back, even as the Spectre. I would talk about Identity Crisis, but I haven't read it yet (Your local Apple Market IS NOT a comic shop.). From what I gather, it was a well-done mystery story with plenty of depth. Pardon the ramble, I can't ignore a comics talk.

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Also, for every shitty book Marvel has out, DC has two.

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Vertigo is part of DC, so no way. And even without that factored in, I think it's about even. They both put out about an equal majority of bad books.

When I start telling someone about a good comics story and they give me the "Oh, I don't read comics" crap, I just tell them that they don't have to. 90% of the comics out there are crap, plain and simple. Skip it all. But keep an eye on 3 people: Alan Moore, Frank Miller, and Neil Gaiman. Regardless of company or character. Not reading Miller's Daredevil because it's Marvel is like not playing Contra: Hard Corps because it's on the Genesis. It's stupid.

But yeah, I agree, the majority of comics are crap and for kids. Hell, even the ones I still enjoy I wouldn't recommend to most. For what it's worth, I think DC's historically put out the most amazing shit that's been influential to me: Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Sin City series, Gaiman's Sandman, Moore's Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Killing Joke, Swamp Thing run, ABC Comics like Tom Strong and Top Ten, etc. The good majority of the best shit I've read has come from DC, plain and simple. Not that the suits wrote it or anything, it just happened that way.

Oh snap, I think Mike Allred deserves some props. Almost forgot him.

You forgot Garth Ennis.


...or DID YOU??

Garth Ennis can eat my balls.

Hey, remember when J. Michael Strackinsyksyckawicz tried doing a comic after his head was fat from Babylon 5 and it sucked?

Remember when John Romano tried doing a game after his head was fat from Doom and it sucked?

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Originally Posted by Mzo

Garth Ennis can eat my balls.

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Tsk. When he's not going overboard trying to be "shocking" Ennis writes some good shit.

That's a whole lot of IBTN there.

(Post #126, I mean)

edit: However, you're miscrediting DC with a few Moore things. V for Vendetta wasn't put out by them, and the ABC line started under Wildstorm when it was still part of Image. Moore was pretty pissed when DC bought WS, he was in a pretty big anti-DC stage at that point. Though he didn't do it right after the fact, DC editorially fucking with something in Tommorrow Stories is probably a big part of why he recently quit comics altogether.