Jade Empire

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

Yes it is. KotOR, Diablo, they're hack-fests. Click on the enemy & watch 'em go. Morrowind only really had regular attacks or spells, unless you played a stealth character and snuck up behind the whole game. Most western rpgs these days are online, which means even more hacking.

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No, it isn't. Once again you're oversimplifying to be smug. You'll probably roll your eyes, but in WRPGs the weapon type adds a lot of variation. Do you go with the slower stronger axe, the fast but light dagger, or the standard sword? One handed or two? Then there's all sorts of enchantments and whatnot that further tailor a weapon to a particular situation. Generally, you don't get this kind of deep equipment-side interaction with most JRPGs.

KotOR and Diablo are bad examples, because one was more story-driven and the other was DESIGNED as just a hack-fest. When I think of true WRPGs I'm thinking like Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, The Elder Scrolls series, etc. These games had a heavy emphasis on equipment strategy, or rather using the right weapons, armor, and abilities for the right situation. That, I believe, is something you find almost exclusively in Western RPGs.

Now, I'm not saying this automatically makes them superior, but personally I preferred it.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

In general though I think WRPGs have been closer to what I want in an RPG. Japan hasn't been attempting anything as ambitious as the Elder Scrolls games.

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Which is a shame, because they could do it with some kickass production values.

On the other hand, it would be completely open-ended except you can only be a 16 year old boy accompanying a virginal female on her voyage of self discovery and transformation.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

On the other hand, it would be completely open-ended except you can only be a 16 year old boy accompanying a virginal female on her voyage of self discovery and transformation.

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Sounds Hot!

Seriously though, Japan will probably never make an RPG like Elderscrolls or KotOR because that's not what Japanese gamers want. Besides, the games they're making are still selling, so what's there to make them want to change?

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Originally Posted by g0zen

No, it isn't. Once again you're oversimplifying to be smug. You'll probably roll your eyes, but in WRPGs the weapon type adds a lot of variation. Do you go with the slower stronger axe, the fast but light dagger, or the standard sword? One handed or two?

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Um, okay, how does that have anything to do with most rpg battles being 90% normal attacks? Even if you're using a slow halberd, you're still just using your standard attack and not waiting until you can unleash the super-dramatic flashing light show 90 hit combo to do some damage like in Xenosaga.

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Then there's all sorts of enchantments and whatnot that further tailor a weapon to a particular situation. Generally, you don't get this kind of deep equipment-side interaction with most JRPGs.

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Dude, like every jrpg has that shit. The Materia system back in FFVII, whatever they called customizing your weapon properties in FFX, even that stupid waste a turn to switch colours thing in Skies of Arcadia. There are tons of little weapon modifying systems in jrpgs.

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KotOR and Diablo are bad examples, because one was more story-driven and the other was DESIGNED as just a hack-fest. When I think of true WRPGs I'm thinking like Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape, Arcanum, The Elder Scrolls series, etc. These games had a heavy emphasis on equipment strategy, or rather using the right weapons, armor, and abilities for the right situation. That, I believe, is something you find almost exclusively in Western RPGs.

Now, I'm not saying this automatically makes them superior, but personally I preferred it.

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You're imagining things. Most jrpgs these days have you changing equipment just as often as western ones do. Morrowind had bugger all to do with changing weapons & armor all the time - you find the best stuff for your class, enchant the crap out of it if it wasn't enchanted already, and never take it off. Your defensive and offensive abilities have far more to do with your strength & proficiency with that type of weapon or armor than the item itself. After the first 20 hours I'd found the cuirass of Saviour's Hide & never needed to change anything. Baldur's Gate uses standard AD&D "this type of armor is better than that type of armor" rules. It's just a matter of finding the stuff with the most +s.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Sounds Hot!

Seriously though, Japan will probably never make an RPG like Elderscrolls or KotOR because that's not what Japanese gamers want. Besides, the games they're making are still selling, so what's there to make them want to change?

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Jrpgs have done alot in terms of character customization over the last few years. It used to be you'd just use whatever you found in the latest dungeon, but now there are job/class/sphere grid systems, weapon modification systems etc. Star Ocean had branching conversations with party members before KotOR came along. Shenmue tried to encourage a large free roaming environment. Jrpgs as far back as 7th Saga let you choose to play through as evil characters. It would just be a matter of somebody coming along and putting it all together with a dynamic-changing narrative.

Star Ocean has gone downhill since 2 and Shenmue has more flaws than I want to get into. Neither of these should be examples of JRPGs being on level with Elderscrolls and KotOR.

Also, there's a big difference between being able to choose an evil character to play as and being able to make good and bad choices. Jade Empire doesn't make you chose if you're good or evil, it lets you make your own peron. You could be good, evil or somewhere inbetween, and all your actions have a realistic impact on the world around you. I have never seen, and I doubt I ever will see, a JRPG with a similar system.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

I played KotOR before I played FFX. Outside the white-knuckle thrills of branching (bland) dialogue trees and watching your guy's face change, FFX is a better designed game in every facet.

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ok now even i have to say, nigga please. calling the options presented by the trees bland is just straight up ignorant. Tell me one time that in ffx your character had as much ability to effect on the story as the "promised land" storyline branch in the undercity in kotor, just one sidestory, and not even a big payoff loot-wise but it helped you define your character better than any whiney emo transvestite with a physicly impossible sword has ever done. jrpgs used to be my favorite genre, now i can barely stand them. Why, because i realize there is no actual role playing in them.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

Jrpgs have done alot in terms of character customization over the last few years. It used to be you'd just use whatever you found in the latest dungeon, but now there are job/class/sphere grid systems, weapon modification systems etc. Star Ocean had branching conversations with party members before KotOR came along. Shenmue tried to encourage a large free roaming environment. Jrpgs as far back as 7th Saga let you choose to play through as evil characters. It would just be a matter of somebody coming along and putting it all together with a dynamic-changing narrative.

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man i wish that could happen. no matter howmuch customization they have allegedly had, they really havent gotten close to where the tes series is, if they get there, it would kick ass.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Star Ocean has gone downhill since 2 and Shenmue has more flaws than I want to get into. Neither of these should be examples of JRPGs being on level with Elderscrolls and KotOR.

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I didn't say they were. I just said most of the design elements have been tried individualy.

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Also, there's a big difference between being able to choose an evil character to play as and being able to make good and bad choices. Jade Empire doesn't make you chose if you're good or evil, it lets you make your own peron. You could be good, evil or somewhere inbetween, and all your actions have a realistic impact on the world around you. I have never seen, and I doubt I ever will see, a JRPG with a similar system.

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Nah, if it makes money in the west, a Japanese developer will try it sooner or later. I'd be pretty surprised if no Japanese develper at least tried something similar in the next gen. From said they wanted to do a pick-up-every-spoon-and-fork environment in Enchant Arm, but didn't really have time.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

ok now even i have to say, nigga please. calling the options presented by the trees bland is just straight up ignorant. Tell me one time that in ffx your character had as much ability to effect on the story as the "promised land" storyline branch in the undercity in kotor, just one sidestory, and not even a big payoff loot-wise but it helped you define your character better than any whiney emo transvestite with a physicly impossible sword has ever done. jrpgs used to be my favorite genre, now i can barely stand them. Why, because i realize there is no actual role playing in them.

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That's not what I meant by bland...I just never found the level of dialogue in KotOR rose above the Star Wars movie level. That's exactly what's to be expected, but it doesn't mean I should be thrilled by it. I personally felt FFX, for all its convolutedness, teen angst and goofball cliches, had more heart than KotOR did.

I like jRPG's because they usually offer a richer story with less hassle. But fighting random battles to supe up your guy is absolutely tedious, tedious work and I hate it. In western RPGs weapons are secondary to skill. If you can find the best sword in the world by happenstance then you should use it and take care of it the rest of the game. This usually isn't the case with the way these games are designed.

jRPGs can be fun because the stories are so dramatic. I want someone to make an over-the-top Tarantino style jRPG because it would be absolutely amazing. There's no way to mess it up. Blood, warping attacks, the whole nine yards.

Western RPGs allow you to customize your own character. jRPG's allow you to customize certain characters in a narrow mold. My dragoon is still a dragoon. In Morrowind my character can be a healer, a fighter, a rogue or a wizard. It's all up to me.