gay marriage

A gay marriage thread!
*reads*
Fuck I'm late to the party and all salient points are made. I think the fact that we've gotten this far in the discussion without people beating each other with religious quotes is a good sign for this country. As an pretty big glbt activist all I want is equal protection and recognition before the law. I believe consenting adults should be able to do fuck all on thier own property. That includes churches and them not holding gay marriages if they don't believe in it.

Seperation of the Church and State FTW pls. Churchies, remember, what happens if the wrong sect of religion gains power. Like Muslims, or Jews.

/lol

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

marriage is part of a relationship bond based on sex. Friends do not get married; people who want to fuck get married. Gay people have a different sexuality than hetero people. It is the defining difference between the two. It is therefore somewhat reasonable to say that they might very well have different reasons for getting married.

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Marriage is a good business decision for couples. That's about it. Oh and maybe if you really like (see: love) them then you'd also be inclined to do it. Like if you didn't think it got any better for you than this girl, then you'd do it. It has nothing to do with sex. You can have sex outside of marriage. In fact Yoshi would probably tell you to avoid getting married if you want sex to continue being fun.

The problem here is that you're making broad generalizations that are really wrong. I love how you categorize gay people as a different species than straight people. While it makes for a potentially killer stand-up bit it's also kind of idiotic. Gay people are just as insecure/stupid/random as any other human beings you'd find on the planet. Some of them probably even have neck hair!

This is like sitting around the camp fire asking people what they'd do if they were gay, like it's some kind of super power (I'd open up a hair salon for dogs BTW).

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

why don't you make a horrable cartoon about it

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I'd do it but I don't want such controversial topics on Robobo. Everything's daisies over there.

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Originally Posted by MarsKitten

Seperation of the Church and State FTW pls.

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This is never going to happen. Ideally the smartest thing to do would be to study the Bible and out school your electorial opponent during a debate or something. It's on your fucking money for pete's sake.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

This is never going to happen. Ideally the smartest thing to do would be to study the Bible and out school your electorial opponent during a debate or something. It's on your fucking money for pete's sake.

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I never expect this to really happen. This country was founded by Christians and is continued to be run by Christians. It will never be out of the law. In a perfect country we'd live up to all the fancy talk and equal rights but for fuck's sake, it's a joke sometimes and throughout history we have to go through a lot of shit to make people realize that point again. Religion, at some point, usually plays a part in that. The theory of having law and religion not tangle up is fantastic but it doesn't work here. What we need is those nice CHristian people to recognize that not everybody in the country thinks that way and it's for the better of everything to check the religion at the door. That's what we need here.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

The theory of having law and religion not tangle up is fantastic but it doesn't work here.

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Well, actually it does or else we couldn't have this debate to begin with. The religion of the founders (the vast majority of which were not dogmatic Christian followers) and / or the current regime is irrelevant as long as we continue to be a nation governed by the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

What we need is those nice CHristian people to recognize that not everybody in the country thinks that way and it's for the better of everything to check the religion at the door. That's what we need here.

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Now this is something that is never going to happen. These people have a vested interesting in pushing their religious agenda onto the entire populace because in the end the want that agenda, that viewpoint, to govern the way in which our entire society is ordered. They are simply not content to live their own lives that way, they want..no they 'need'..for everyone else to be forced along that path as well. Otherwise, why try to tack on discrimination into our most important documents?

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Well, actually it does or else we couldn't have this debate to begin with. The religion of the founders (the vast majority of which were not dogmatic Christian followers) and / or the current regime is irrelevant as long as we continue to be a nation governed by the Constitution.

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But we're not governing strictly by the Constitution or else this would be more of a non-issue. This country is overwhelmingly Christian going by those who are in political power and active voters. The average Christian tends to be against homosexuality, and thus tend to be against pro-gay legislation. I'm making very broad generalizations so I don't want to start someone jumping on me about it, but it fits very often. Religion comes into play -all the time-, sometimes for good, sometimes not. May not be the driving factor and it may be covered up but it's there, a lot. Take a look at how many senators and governors have 'supporting good, Christian values' and 'preserving the holy sanctity of marriage' in their ad campaigns. Legal decisions in this country are not entirely free from religion. It happens, a lot, and I see if be brought up very frequently when homosexuality and the legal issues around it are brought up. The religion of our current government is largely Christian and most of them aren't afraid to admit it having it influence them at least once during their run.

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Now this is something that is never going to happen. These people have a vested interesting in pushing their religious agenda onto the entire populace because in the end the want that agenda, that viewpoint, to govern the way in which our entire society is ordered. They are simply not content to live their own lives that way, they want..no they 'need'..for everyone else to be forced along that path as well. Otherwise, why try to tack on discrimination into our most important documents?

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So you say we don't have religious influence in our laws currently, and then that they are pushing it? Having discrimination be legal isn't new at all, nor is anyone pushing their agenda onto others. I'm simply saying that in a world where we could literally take equal freedom and equal rights, voting parties would need to set aside any religious upbringing and views about what they personally think is 'right' and take a different look at things. Again, I don't ever expect that to happen. Religion instills morals and that's a way of life and yeah, people will vote for what they believe in.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

But we're not governing strictly by the Constitution or else this would be more of a non-issue.

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Well, actually, we are. That's why these religious issues flare up but never stick around. Whenever these issues are taken before SCOTUS where there are rules of evidence and logic, the religious nut's case breaks apart.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

Religion comes into play -all the time-, sometimes for good, sometimes not.

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Give me one example of when religion's intersection with politics is good.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

Legal decisions in this country are not entirely free from religion. It happens, a lot, and I see if be brought up very frequently when homosexuality and the legal issues around it are brought up. The religion of our current government is largely Christian and most of them aren't afraid to admit it having it influence them at least once during their run.

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I would say legal proceedings in this country are not free from religion, but legal decisions ARE. Of course, there is a big difference between a decision and what I think you're talking about, which is legislation. It is true that the 'values' crowd in Congress regularly pushes along legislation that is prompted by their religious agenda, however even in the rare occurance that the law makes it through the Congress and the moron-and-chief signs it, that does not mean it is now set in stone. The courts are there for this very reason, to counter balance this ridiculousness, and they have on many occasions before and will continue to do so. This is why the separation of powers is so very important. The bias of legislators and even the executives is irrelevant as long as the courts still rule on the letter of the supreme law of the land, which in the United States is the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

So you say we don't have religious influence in our laws currently, and then that they are pushing it?

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I'm saying that religious influence on our laws is irrelevant as long as the Constitution is there to invalidate them when they're violations of people's civil rights.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

I'm simply saying that in a world where we could literally take equal freedom and equal rights, voting parties would need to set aside any religious upbringing and views about what they personally think is 'right' and take a different look at things. Again, I don't ever expect that to happen. Religion instills morals and that's a way of life and yeah, people will vote for what they believe in.

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Well, that's not really equal to the Christians then. They have equal freedom to be Christians and to think they're 'right', but where that cuts off is when they try to illegal impose that on the rest of the population. Also, I take issue with the idea that religion instills morals as I and many others find ourselves able to function in a moral universe without it.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Give me one example of when religion's intersection with politics is good.

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Most religions have pretty solid ideas behind them. Those values have been taken into consideration when writing most of the intelligent constitutions and laws around the world. Not killing people and the basic shared religious thought of being good to others. It's not entirely religious but it's been there in the past to promote decent things. Modern stuff? I don't know, I admittedly don't pay great attention to laws and legal proceedings. I'm discussing only what I know of, which is very little, but I guess that's the whole point of being of age to vote and trying to be active and informed.

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I would say legal proceedings in this country are not free from religion, but legal decisions ARE. Of course, there is a big difference between a decision and what I think you're talking about, which is legislation. It is true that the 'values' crowd in Congress regularly pushes along legislation that is prompted by their religious agenda, however even in the rare occurance that the law makes it through the Congress and the moron-and-chief signs it, that does not mean it is now set in stone. The courts are there for this very reason, to counter balance this ridiculousness, and they have on many occasions before and will continue to do so... I'm saying that religious influence on our laws is irrelevant as long as the Constitution is there to invalidate them when they're violations of people's civil rights.

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Which is great on paper but does it honestly work that way? I don't understand how you can say proceedings are not free from religious pushes but decisions are. One leads to the other, they're not independent. If you take all the Christian protesting of gay marriage out of the situation don't you think something would have been passed to protect the whole equal rights shit a while ago? From how I see it, and please do point me in a better direction if I'm way off, but the law isn't perfect and civil rights aren't always being protected, which is a big issue here. Most people would like to agree that citizens deserve the same rights. We've knocked down race, religion, gender, handicapped status, etc. as being protected and you would naturally assume something like sexuality to follow, but it's being fussed about a lot, and a good deal of the fussing is done time and time again by religious groups claiming that homosexuals don't deserve the same rights.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

Not killing people and the basic shared religious thought of being good to others.

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Not killing people and empathizing with others aren't uniquely religious values, they are societial values, and I think it's unwise to paint them as religious at their core because you're essentially playing into the loonies claim that the bible, ten commandments, etc. are the bedrock of our country. They aren't.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

Which is great on paper but does it honestly work that way? I don't understand how you can say proceedings are not free from religious pushes but decisions are.

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Like I said, the religious tendencies of the legislators are completely irrelevant when the laws they craft are scrutinized under the Constitutional microscope. The law itself will be all that matters, and if it violates equal rights under the law then it will be shitcanned as it should be. This is the reason we have the three branches.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

If you take all the Christian protesting of gay marriage out of the situation don't you think something would have been passed to protect the whole equal rights shit a while ago?

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Certainly positive legistlation would be great, but even without it atleast there is protection from negative legistlation that attempts to set people back further.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

From how I see it, and please do point me in a better direction if I'm way off, but the law isn't perfect and civil rights aren't always being protected, which is a big issue here.

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I'm not trying to say the US has always been free and equal, but over the years we're getting closer. The Constitution is a great example of how as the nation has aged it reflects these values; abolishment of slavery, women's sufferage, etc. It didn't come overnight, and alot of people had to suffer in the meantime, but history has set the precedent that in the end the US will rule on the side of freedom and equal treatment.

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Originally Posted by Nomi

Most people would like to agree that citizens deserve the same rights. We've knocked down race, religion, gender, handicapped status, etc. as being protected and you would naturally assume something like sexuality to follow, but it's being fussed about a lot, and a good deal of the fussing is done time and time again by religious groups claiming that homosexuals don't deserve the same rights.

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Well, like I said it's a process. There were people who cried from the rafters that blacks didn't deserve the same rights as whites, and in the end it was the courts that had to intervene. I think that, eventually, something very similar will happen here.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Marriage is a good business decision for couples. That's about it. Oh and maybe if you really like (see: love) them then you'd also be inclined to do it. Like if you didn't think it got any better for you than this girl, then you'd do it. It has nothing to do with sex. You can have sex outside of marriage. In fact Yoshi would probably tell you to avoid getting married if you want sex to continue being fun.

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ha ha

clever

so, why aren't you married to some huge fat cow of a woman with lots of money?

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Originally Posted by Andrew

This is never going to happen. Ideally the smartest thing to do would be to study the Bible and out school your electorial opponent during a debate or something. It's on your fucking money for pete's sake.

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yes, and so is an all seeing eye on a pyramid.

The religious right needs to get it through their fucking skulls that the founders of this nation were not bible beaters. Franklin was Gnostic, Jefferson made his own Bible by ripping out everything magical from a normal Bible, and many others were agnostic or deist.