Calling all Christians!

oh, and Jesus wasnt a political revolutionary.

infact its just what he wasnt, even though it was just what the Zealots wanted him to be.

they thought the messiah would be a great soldier who would lead their armies to crush the Roman forces who occupied them, because they resented them.

Jesus wasnt, and this actually turned off a lot of his would-be followers.

they wanted a political revolutionary, Jesus wasnt one.

want proof ?

" and they asked Jesus, 'should we pay taxes to ceasar ?' and jesus replied 'let me see one of your coins, who's face is this on it ?' they said 'it is ceasars' so then Jesus replied 'then give to ceasar what is ceasar's, and give to God what is his "

doesnt sound like a revolutionary to me.

This is why I responded to MKUltra about making it personal and bringing up good deeds. I spent - what? - twenty minutes composing a long post responding to CV. (It actually took two hours since I was doing it at work and I had a lot of interruptions.) What happens? CV blows off that entire post so he can pat himself on the back. That is not the first time something like that has happened.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in God.

I am a humanist. I believe in people.

I would wager that I help others at least as much as CV does. I would hold my personal actions and philosophies up as an example of how to lead "the Good Life." My morality is unwavering when it comes to justice and personal responsibility.

I fight for my beliefs the way good Christians fight for theirs. I do it more on defense than offense; nevertheless, my faith is well-founded in reason and love for humanity. If I became a God-believer tomorrow, I would carry over my morality, because it is something I have come up with over decades.

Whether CV or I is more moral has little bearing on the discussion of God, since there are paragons of virtue and vile wretches on both sides of the issue. I do worry, though, about morality that is "given" or adopted from a book. If CV stopped heeding the Bible as the revelation of God, how would his morality be affected?

Anyway, there is a big post up there that I wrote that might interest you, CV. Read it through again. I put good effort into it. I had a KJV Bible open for reference so that I could more effectively provide exact quotes, but I used no other references. Those were my thoughts that I composed for you in particular and everyone else in general. I thought we were discussing things.

Talk to me about perfect peace and justice and love. Respond to the points I made. Don't try to change my mind, necessarily, just give me your honest opinions on that quote-counterquote post. Be as honest as you are comfortable being.

Quote:

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Originally posted by burgundy
I'm gonna have to call you on this one. I've seen Nick win over an entire crowd and even get concessions from some pretty hard-edge preachers with my own eyes.

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If you were paying attention, you would have noticed this was already covered...

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Then, it\'s heresy. According to Revelations.

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Yep! Sure is! What was your point again?

Quote:

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That may be true, but all it establishes is that the story existed at that time, not that it was true. Do you believe that Zeus and Athena and all of them visited the heroes of the Iliad? Do you believe Biblical stories of Creation and the Flood which have been proven beyond a scientific doubt to be untrue?

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Science proves beyond the shadow of a doubt the flood and creation never happened...Oh, please tell me! I'd like to see the proof! Please! (hint: "Proof" doesn't mean "theory.")

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That is 100% wrong.

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Hmmm...Here: I give to you, historians and their writings, along with archeological discoveries proving some events in the Bible. Please, pardon it's length...but you really did ask for this.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 19.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, "And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth."

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus' account of an eclipse of the sun.

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun."

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, "And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two."

The oddity is that Jesus' crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus' mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus' crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante–Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

"They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Gal. 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Luke 22:1, "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people."

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

Those are the historians and their writings. Here's the archeological stuff. Again, you asked for it:

Here's a quote to preface this section

Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Gluek confidently said that "It...may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible."

Here, here, here, and here (though this one's got very little)

I can surely offer you more...but I'm sure you're already up to your eyeballs in facts.

100% false, eh? Next time you want to start a historical debate, know who you're dealing with.

And just for the fun of it, at no extra cost! Scientific accuracies in the Bible! Keep in mind the time period in which the Bible was written:

The Shape of the Earth
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22, NIV).
This may or may not be construed to support the spherical shape of the earth. The horizon is a circle and a circle is flat.

The Earth is suspended in nothing
"He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing" (Job. 26:7, NIV).
This is particularly interesting considering that the cosmology of other cultures at that time did not have the earth suspended in nothing, but rather upon pillars, or people, or animals.

The Stars are Innumerable
"He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars -- if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be" (Gen. 15:5, NIV).


The Existence of Valleys in the Seas
"The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of breath from his nostrils" (2 Sam. 22:16, NIV).

The Existence of Springs and Fountains in the Seas
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened" (Genesis 7:11, NIV). See also Gen. 8:2; Prov. 8:28.

The Existence of Water Paths (Ocean Currents) in the Seas
"O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!...When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,...You made him [man] ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet...the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas" (Psalm 8:1,3,6,8, NIV).

The Hydrologic Cycle
"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight" (Job. 26:8, NIV).
"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind" (Job. 36:27-28, NIV)
"The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7, NIV).

The Concept of Entropy
"In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded" (Psalm 102:22-26, NIV).

The Nature of Health, Sanitation, and Sickness
The listing for this section is too large for this post. But the scriptural references are Leviticus 12-14.

You, burgundy, clearly didn't know who you were messing with. I have the documents to back my claims up...do you?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Nick
This is why I responded to MKUltra about making it personal and bringing up good deeds. I spent - what? - twenty minutes composing a long post responding to CV. (It actually took two hours since I was doing it at work and I had a lot of interruptions.) What happens? CV blows off that entire post so he can pat himself on the back. That is not the first time something like that has happened.

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Cut me a break, eh? You have a lot of deep issues going on in your post...issues I don\'t know if I\'m prepared to handle.

I wasn\'t ignoring you or skipping over you. I am preparing to reply...but preparations might take a bit as I might just be in over my head.

I full intend on replying to you...after I\'ve gotten ready. But in the meantime, I felt it was permissable to answer the items I knew I was prepared for.

Sorry to make you feel \"put-off.\" That was not my intention. If you\'d just cool down a bit... ;)

See you all tomorrow. I\'l most definitly have a reply for you then, Nick.

An honest, unadulterated reply. Just like the one you asked for. :D

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Originally posted by LittleEric
want proof ?

" and they asked Jesus, 'should we pay taxes to ceasar ?' and jesus replied 'let me see one of your coins, who's face is this on it ?' they said 'it is ceasars' so then Jesus replied 'then give to ceasar what is ceasar's, and give to God what is his "

doesnt sound like a revolutionary to me.

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do you want to shoot yourself in the foot again???

here something for ya....


Problems With The bible



1.How many Gods are there?

(GEN1:26) God said "LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS" ,

(GEN3:22) God said "MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US" .

(DEUT6:4) God is one God

2.When was God first called Jehovah?

(Genesis 4:26) long before Moses, men began to call on the name of the Lord, "Jehovah",

(Genesis 22:14) Abraham named a place Jehovah-jireh. "The Lord will provide."

(Exodus 6:2-3) God informed Moses that previously His name (Jehovah) had been unknown even to the patriarchs such as Abraham Isaac and Jacob

3.When did the Nephilim live?

(Genesis 6:4) The Nephilim (giants) lived on earth prior to the Flood

(Genesis 7:23) Only Noah and his family, and the animals on the Ark, survived the Flood.


7.Math quiz: How long was the flood?

(GEN7:17, 8:6) The flood was on the Earth 40 days and nights

(GEN7:24, 8:3) The flood was on the Earth 150 days CONTRADICTS

(GEN7:11) the flood began during the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day of Noah's life and finally dried up

(GEN8:13) during the 601st year, 1st month, 1st day of Noah's life (1 solar year from the date given in Gen7:11).

8.When did the world develop many different languages?

(Genesis 11:1,6-9) In the days of Babel, generations after the Flood, the world had one common language. God "confused the tongues" to create many.

(Genesis 10:5) Prior to Babel, the Bible speaks of many "nations", each with its own language

9.Does God cause confusion?

(GEN11:9) God confused the language of all the Earth at Babel

(EX15:24) God troubled (CONFUSED BY SOME TRANSLATIONS) the army of Egypt.

(1SAM7:10) God thundered upon the philistines so as to confuse them

(1COR14:33) God is not the author of confusion

10.Math quiz: How long did Terah live?

(Genesis 11:26,32) Terah lived 135 years after begetting Abraham (he begat Abram at age 70 and lived 205 years total).

(Genesis 12:4) Abraham was 75 years old when he departed Haran.

(Acts 7:4) Abraham departed Haran when his father (Terah) was dead.

11.Who has seen God?

(Gen 18:1) The Lord appeared to Abraham.

(GEN32:24-30) Jacob saw and wrestled with God

(EX24:9-11) Moses & 73 elders gazed upon God.

(Exodus 33:11) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.

(Exodus 33:22-23) God allowed Moses to see his "back parts".

(Deut 34:10) God spoke to Moses face-to-face.

(IS6:1-13) Isaiah stood before God and saw him

(Ezekiel 1:27-28) Ezekiel saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail.

(Amos 7:7) Amos saw God.

(John 1:18, 6:46) No one has ever seen God.

(1TIM6:16) God is un-seeable

(I John 4:12) No one has ever seen God.

12.Is God a fair and righteous judge?

(GEN18:25) God claims to judge right

(GEN22:1-2) God commands Abraham to sacrifice his own son.

(EX20:5) God admits jealousy

(DEUT32:4) God is perfect, just, true, righteous, upright,

(PSALM92:15) God is not unrighteous

(IS45:7) God claims to do good AND evil; all things

(JER18:11) God threatens disaster to make a people be good

(EZEK18:25) God claims to be fair

(AMOS3:6) God admits he makes calamity

(ROM2:11) God is impartial

(JAMES 1:13) God is not tempted by evil and tempts no one with evil

13.Who was Keturah?

(GEN25:1) Keturah was Abraham's wife

(1CHRON1:32) Keturah was Abraham's concubine.

14.Who sold Joseph into slavery?

(Genesis 37:36) The Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to Potiphar, the courtier of Pharaoh

(Geneis 39:1) The Ishmaelites brought Joseph to Egypt and sold him to Potiphar, the courtier of Pharaoh.

15.Where was Jacob buried?

(Genesis 50:13) Jacob was buried in Canaan. in a cave which Abraham had purchased from Ephron the Hittite.

(Acts 7:15-16) Jacob was buried in Sychem. in a sepulchre which Abraham had purchased from Emmor.

16.Does God condone or condemn lying?

(EX2:18-20) God deals well with midwives for lying to the King of Egypt.

(EX20:16) Lying forbidden

(JOSH2:4-6) Rahab hides two men from the King of Jericho and lies to him and is dealt well with by God

(PROV12:22) Lying is an abomination to God

(JAMES2:25) James preaches that Rahab was justified for hiding two men and lying,

(REV21:8) all liars will burn in the lake of fire

17.How `bout stealing?

(Exodus 3:21-22) plundering commanded.

(Exodus 20:15) Stealing forbidden

18.Does God afflict people with illnesses?

(Exodus 4:11) God admitted He is the cause of blindness, deafness, dumbness.

(Lamentations 3:33) God does not willingly cause grief or affliction.

19.Did God kill off the Pharoah's livestock, or didn't he?

(Exodus 9:3-6) God killed all the cattle (field animals) of the Egyptians with a grievous murrain including the horses, asses, camels, oxen and sheep. None survived the plague

(Exodus 9:19-21,25) Later, at least some of the Egyptian field animals were mysteriously alive again, to suffer a plague of hail.

(EX14:9) Pharaoh later chases Israel with all his horses and chariots.

20.Is God peaceful?

(EX15:3) He is a God of war.

(1COR14:33) He is not a God of confusion but of peace

21.How does God feel about the making of images?

(Exodus 20:4) Image-making forbidden

(Exodus 25:18) God commands the making of two cherubim.

22.Who pays for sins?

(Exodus 20:5) God blames children for the iniquities of the father. even for four generations.

(Deuteronomy 5:9) His curse or punishment may extend far beyond the third or fourth generation.


Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

•Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal." •Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.

•Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians." •Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians." •Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.



Shall we make graven images?

•Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water." •Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone." •Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.

•Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them." •I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

•Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." •Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." •Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.

•James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." •Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."


Should we own slaves?

•Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever." •Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." •Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do." •Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it." •Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." •Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.

•Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke." •Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

•Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not." •Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." •Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent." •James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.

•Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." •Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him." •Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

•Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9) •Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation." •I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.

•Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father." •Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

•Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all." •Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.

•Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7. •Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" •Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you." •Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

•James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.

•Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

•Romans 15:33 "The God of peace." •Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.

•Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war." •Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

•John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you." •Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ." •Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.

•Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." •Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."


Shall we call people names?

•Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.

•Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking] •Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

•John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time." •Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." •John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father." •I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.

•Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face." •Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend." •Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple." •Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

•Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.

•Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image." •Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil." •I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

•Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." •Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." •Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.

•Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright." •Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation." •Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."


Should we swear an oath?

•Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth." •Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them." •Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

•Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." •James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."


continue to Bible Problems part 2

gongos. you are talking of constructs degrading. I will not dispute that.

construct A = {xxxxxxxxxxx}

degraded, you have {xxx}, x, whatever, you get the point.

a singular natural form, however, cannot be degraded. So we would be in a world where there is degradation, with the natural form being the limit of degredation. ie: that it approaches the natural form existing in singular states, and not that it approaches nothingness.

Quote:

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"Temoprary forms are manipulated by the unique natural form into the correct form to support the temporary existence of the things that are on it, then what natural form is needed? lets say that a fly is entirely a created form, and breathes air, which is a created form, responds to gravity,which is a law created to apply to the created planet, and all of the fly's needs are met for its existence, then what natural form is evident? Its reality is simply based on its existence, it has spatial extension, mass, weight, all the statistics we associate with matter,then what part of it needs to be a natural form? I would argue that by its exhibiting those aforementioned characteristics, its existence is evident, so where is the natural form?

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I would argue, that you are witnessing the natural form. If there is no natural component(and I believe you understand my definition of natural now) that is responsible for what we witness in existence, then how is there anything?

look at your fly. does a fly exist as a singular entity? No. A fly, is an occurence, a set of multiple things working in such a manner that we recognize it as a fly. So, you do not say the fly responds to gravity. not independently anyways(independently=actually, dependently=something else is responsible, and that is what should genuinely be judged). You are witnessing the activity of the cells. the fly is dependent on these cells, and with respect to the fly, and the cells, you could determine the activity of the "fly" based solely on the activity of the cells, and really , understanding of the cells and how they work is all that is required. Recognition of the fly is a matter of convenience. And the cells, how do they work? I'm not aware of the actual chain, but I'll drop down to molecules now, and a cell can be seen as the accumulated activity of a set of molecules, and recognition of the cells existence, is not a requirement , but a matter of convenience, and indeed, if we understand the working of the molecules properly, we can understand the working of the cells, and the resulting fly. And the molecules? what are these dependent on? and the chain goes further and further down the line. The point is, in order for the chain to end, it should follow that there is a natural form that is the genuine responsible factor. It would be that which exists, and through understanding it, we could account for everything that is based on it.

Certainly, to say that a dependent form, can exist independently(that is, as you have been saying, there are no natural forms, but only created forms) is an oxymoron.

Quote:

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"Temoprary forms are manipulated by the unique natural form into the correct form to support the temporary existence of the things that are on it, then what natural form is needed?

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what you are calling "temporary forms", is another term for "constructs of natural forms". remove the natural form, and so goes the "temporary form".

I also remind you of my earlier point of "natural existence" removing the necessity of a god for existence.


with respect to time, I suppose I will let it sit until you get to a point where you find its re-introduction necessary. focusing a discussion is always fine.

Excellent posts, Eric!

I will not coment on Josephus, since I only know a little bit about that. Burgundy, MKUltra, or CV can explore that issue, if they wish.

As for your other points:

1) If you do not believe the Bible is the Word of God, the rest of this discussion might seem full of holes to you. As a Christian, I believed that the Bible was the perfect word of the Holy Spirit and that God is the same for all time - yesterday, today, and forever; from everlasting to everlasting.

Many Christians today attempt to make God acceptable to man, rather than the other way around. Yet, the Bible clearly paints the portrait of God that He wishes us to know. Unless you are claiming divine revelation on par with what was revealed to Isaiah or Paul, we will deal with Scripture, not with your conjectures outside it.

2) There are two things that testify to the existence of God, according to the Good Book. There is the Bible itself and there is the testimony of nature. Similarly, salvation, as we have seen, is divided into two covenants: one before Christ's death and one after.

As I have quoted earlier, God has explicitly stated that we are saved by grace.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags . . ."

Being a good person will not get you into the house of the Lord. To be in, you must want to be in. Remember, He stands at the door and knocks. You cannot ignore the knock then hope to crash the party later. It is not set up that way. If it were, multitudes more people would be saved.

In fact, everyone would be saved, because there is nothing you can do on this earth in one human lifespan - or even in one thousand human lifespans that would warrant the ever-consuming fires of Hell.

The fact is that we are not good enough for God as we are. We must accept His change in us if we hope to be at His side. Unfortunately, as He said in the Sermon on the Mount, the road is wide to destruction but narrow to salvation. According to Scripture, most are going to Hell, and the goodness in their hearts will not do a damn thing to save them.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."

Mom is out of luck, I guess.

Those who have never heard the name of Christ have the testimony of nature - His majesty to bear witness to them. I am not sure how that is supposed to save them, though.

3) If you are calling Christ's death a show meant for a certain time or a certain mindset, you are diminishing the importance of the Cross and not giving God a heck of a lot of credit for foresight. Christ died for us all. Look at my previous posts for a discussion on blood sacrifices.

According to Paul in Romans, we are tainted by original sin. The sin of Adam must be atoned for if God is to accept us into His bosom. It's not your parking tickets and burned Dreamcast games that offend Him, it is your innate sin.

My, my, my. I composed a reply, hit the Submit button, and found there is a short-story\'s-worth of text that\'s been posted in the meantime. How quickly do you guys type? :)

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable

You have a lot of deep issues going on in your post...issues I don\'t know if I\'m prepared to handle.

I wasn\'t ignoring you or skipping over you. I am preparing to reply . . . but preparations might take a bit as I might just be in over my head.

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I remember in the Bible - I am pretty sure it was in Acts - advice to the effect of: do not plan what you are going to say before you say it; just open your mouth and let the Holy Spirit\'s words issue forth. You talk a lot about being moved by God, so why are you preparing a response? Just start typing.

When I read your posts, I just start typing out a response. Sometimes I open the Bible to get some direct quotes, and sometimes I step away from the keyboard to answer the phone or deal with someone at work, but I do not go through a preparation period. Are you a telemarketer who needs a script with canned responses?

Come on, man. I am talking to you here, not having a research contest. I do not do this professionally. You probably talk a lot more about the Bible than I do.

What do YOU believe? What do YOU think?

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed and spread dung upon your faces..." Christian/Jewish/Muslim god-Malachi 2:3

CV -

You've shown that Jesus was a man and that lots of people believe that he is the Son of God. I didn't dispute that. Many verified historical accounts speak of Zeus and the rest of the Greek gods, and many people believed in them, yet I doubt you would concede that those gods exist as well.

The Flood did not occur as it is written in Genesis. The fact that a Flood story can be found in Mespotamian culture shows that the writers of the Old Testament borrowed their legends and nothing more. There is no way to account for the diversity between species of plants and animals - many would not have made it to the Ark, survived on it, or returned to their old habitats. There is no way all those creatures could fit on a boat, let alone be fed, exercise, and get along. There are no archaeological findingsthat indicate any worldwide flood within recent human history. Unless you want to dismiss the whole occurence as supernatural phenomena.

As far as the other "truths" found in the bible, not only do you need to stretch and interpret them, but they aren't really that informative. If I get out of bed and say "It's raining," that doesn't make me a prophet or even a meteorologist. By pure statistical chance alone, the Bible had to have gotten some things right.

The fact that you go to theology school doesn't scare me. I go to law school, and that makes me more qualified to provide the substance and detail of the law than you, but not more qualified to say whether those laws are right.

Quote:

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Originally posted by burgundy

I go to law school, and that makes me more qualified [than you] to provide the substance and detail of the law . . . but not more qualified to say whether those laws are right.

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Yep. That's my job.

"Oh-oh-oh, you will be the captain and I will draw the chart . . ."

Quote:

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13.Who was Keturah?

(GEN25:1) Keturah was Abraham's wife

(1CHRON1:32) Keturah was Abraham's concubine.

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I wouldn't doubt that both of those are true :D. It appears that Abraham was the Woody Allen of ancient times.

Plenty more where that came from, though:
"Genesis 19:30
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

19:31
And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

19:32
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:33
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.


19:34
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:35
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

19:36
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

19:37
And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

19:38
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day."