Calling all Christians!

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It would make perfect sence, but it wasn't an argument that He presented to me. He spoke to me directly. I don't mean He instilled in me some type of feeling that lead me to believe He was there. What I mean is that He spoke to me with His own, audible voice.

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I'm not talking about you believing in his existence. I'm talking about the reason he presented to you to justify(explain) his actions. To me, thats seperate from whether or not a god exists. I've said it before, but I used to believe in god when I was younger and I surely didn't like him.

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My goal was to justify myself and my position, and I hope I did rather well.

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I was aware of your position before.My concern is that the argument you have to justify yourself is one you're not allowed to present, or something. Only the conclusion you've drawn from it, which serves little purpose as an explanation.

I totally misunderstood what you were asking for.

My justification for His actions was simply that it was to bring Him glory. I thought I already said that...

I'm sure you did. You also said that the kids were his to take and various other things. So the ultimate explanation for something god does is that it is just because it brings him glory? It doesn't relate at all to the people he is putting at risk to get his glory or the means he takes in doing so? Its an explanation that ignores the circumstances it involves itself in. Is this the supreme rationality?

oh, and I went through the topic and noticed this:

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There is no historical acount to validate your claim that the chronically disobediant children were stoned. The parents of the children had the right to stone their children legally, just as God does, however, as there is no historical account of this law ever being brought to bear, I can tell you that mercy is what won the day.

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When I mentioned smart-mouth kids I was referring to the ones that Elisha had god punish with mauling by bear.

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Originally Posted by rezo

So the ultimate explanation for something god does is that it is just because it brings him glory?

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Well, yes. God acts out of two motivating factors, and only two: Perfect Judgement, or Perfect Mercy. Both return glory to Him, such is their nature. And both He whields with perfect justification.

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It doesn't relate at all to the people he is putting at risk to get his glory or the means he takes in doing so?

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It does. Just because you cannot see it, or it is not readily apparent doesn't mean it doesn't relate.

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Its an explanation that ignores the circumstances it involves itself in. Is this the supreme rationality?

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No, it isn't. It was Perfect Judgement that He was excercising, and most would agree that the Egyptians, children or no, were headed that way to begin with, as they were flippantly defying God.

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When I mentioned smart-mouth kids I was referring to the ones that Elisha had god punish with mauling by bear.

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Oh. Well...they were calling him "baldy!" They had it coming. ;)

Rezo, I'm not coping out of this or trying to dodge giving you an adiquate explanation, but suddenly I realzie why I let this topic die in the first place.

We could do this forever and neither of us would get a leg up on the other until we both die and get to see for ourselves.

I'm comfortable with you thinking God is a selfish, juvenile baby-killer with no reguard for anything that doesn't bring Him glory, and I would ask that you be comfortable with my views as well.

Being comfortable is why I have no problems discussing it. ah well

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Originally Posted by rezo

Being comfortable is why I have no problems discussing it. ah well

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I'm glad to hear it.

I know you're disappointed, but honestly I cannot think of any answer that I can give you to satify your desire. I mean, God really did do those things. He did. It's right there in black and white. And I've done my damndest to try and explain why, which is really all I can do. After all my explaining it would appear as though my answers haven't been good enough, which is fine by me, but it also ends the conversation, as there's really nothing left for me to say.

The only thing I can come up with is that we are children of His wrath. All have sinned, and all fall short of the glory of God. He has every right to exterminate us, as demonstrated by himself on many occasions. Is it unfair? I'd say no, because He was justified in His actions, because of our sin. You'd say yes, because it's a human life, and an innocent human life at that. There's really no where else to go.

And even if He did do all of those "hienous" acts, He still sacrificed Himself and His Son at His own alter that we might see Him in eternity. For everything else He's done that you don't like, this has got to be worth something.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

Don't give me that shit.

"Marked by subnormal structure, function, intelligence, or behavior: defective speech. "

You brought the word up, not me. If you're going to consider people who sin without remorse defective but not schizophrenics and people born without legs, then you're way too fucking PC and need to lighten.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defective

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You can call me names and posture all you want, but if you think a person born differently than yourself is defective then you're wrong. It's not a matter of opion or political correctness. Political correctness says it's okay to label people and throw them into groups as long as you use updated and sensitive terms. I however being an individual who knows a great many people that are crippled, and retarded, can see that they are, despite their dissimilarities to myself, still people. Even crazy people are still people, often just with an illness,I can't speak for you but I don't consider anyone with a cold defective. You can judge them as defects just like the majority of everyone else, it dosen't make it right, and it certainly dosen't make it true. But I've got a definition for you, see if it applies to your views on "crippled, retarded, and crazy people." http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=bigot

Rezo, I'm not as smart as Captain Vegetable, but I like near pointless arguments or debates or discussions. Just because alot of thought goes into them and even divided as we might be on the issue, I feel we both leave smarter from gaining the other persons insight and perspective. I'm no Captain but if you're that heartbroken about the conversation dying I'll galdly try to answer any questions or respond to any debate you might have.

Just one request, let's move on from the stalemated baby killing arguement as it seems to be rather exhausted.

Okay,

I know this may be kind of off topic but I thought I would bring it up. I've been studying "the truth" for a few months now. I have not been going to meetings and people are starting to wonder if I really want to learn "the truth" and make it my own. I say I do but its going to take me some time to trust God. I don't know how to make them understand this because I think to them it was an easy choice. I think its just taking me a little longer. I guess I'm kinda wondering how it was for you guys who are solid in your beliefs when you first began your journey with God. For me its been a little rough.

:(

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Originally Posted by Violently Happy

Okay,

I know this may be kind of off topic but I thought I would bring it up. I've been studying "the truth" for a few months now. I have not been going to meetings and people are starting to wonder if I really want to learn "the truth" and make it my own. I say I do but its going to take me some time to trust God. I don't know how to make them understand this because I think to them it was an easy choice. I think its just taking me a little longer. I guess I'm kinda wondering how it was for you guys who are solid in your beliefs when you first began your journey with God. For me its been a little rough.

:(

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There's nothing wrong with this. Sounds like how I went about things, and still do. No one ever made me believe in God, and it wasn't really an easy out for me. It was something I came about on my own, of my choice, with little to no involvement with church, youthgroups, et al.

So whenever I hear someone say they do/don't believe in God, the best advice I can offer is; it took me my entire life to be where I am today. Tomorrow I may not be who I am today. I have conviction my beliefs but I'm not unchanging. If I'm like this, the least I can do is expect the same from others. I can't demand someone to change their entire life view in one day, conversation, etc. I can't even demand that someone believe what I believe just because I said so. But...that's my take on things at the moment.

Long story short: go at your own pace, follow as you feel is the right way and pace. Be sure you can talk to people you can trust. People who will help you, give you answers, but not force you down a road you don't want/aren't ready for.

But I bet Veggie has better advice ^^

Thanks Hero

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Originally Posted by Hero

Be sure you can talk to people you can trust. People who will help you, give you answers, but not force you down a road you don't want/aren't ready for.

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I think thats the problem. The people who I thought were going to be there for me are the ones pushing me to go to meetings. I undertsand they are important. But still theres this doubt in me that won't go away. And I want to make my journey with God whole heartedly. I said when I first started studying that I was going to do this for the right reasons and no halfassed bull. I'm trying to stick by that. But I guess I'm going too slow.

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I am trying though and I do believe in God.