Bowling for Columbine

[dyomides]

I enjoyed his movie about the fortune 500 companies making profits the same year they made huge layoffs. I can't remember what it was called but it was a great movie. Looking forward to seeing this one.

D

[MVS]

Shit, go watch American Pimp.

Now there's a great documentary.

Filmore Slim owns.

[sleeve]

I saw this movie last night. It's typical Michael Moore fare: some excellent documentary moments broken up by some embarrasing showmanship. The interview with James Nichols (brother of Terry Nichols of Oklahoma City bombing fame) was chilling, and the Buell Elementary School sequence was well-crafted and heartbreaking. But I could have done without the part where he tries to interview Dick Clark just before he leaves in his car and other repetitions of his "Roger and Me" schtick.

One bonus for shmup fans: during the interview with the guy in the Michigan pool hall who knew Eric Harris, look at the back wall on the left side. It's a rare Viper Phase I cab!

[cigsthecat]

Ha, during the movie I leaned over to my brother and said "the game in the background is Viper: Phase 1." It was tough to make out, but once the big render of the ship appeared I figured it out.

[teenwolf]

For those of you who made disparaging remarks about the NRA, Michael Moore was a marksmanship champion as a teenager and is a lifelong member of the NRA as well as being a member of a militia in his state of Michigan. Kind of amusing that he has such large disparity between his personal life and his political (professional) life. This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that he makes large amounts of money appealing to the "progressive" elements in our society, of course not......

This movie is clearly an attempt at revisionist history, Michael intentionally ignores the real underlying reasons behind the right to bear arms being in our constitution instead substituting disparaging revisionist views about the motivations of our forefathers. Moore may not have said that there is something wrong with owning guns, but it was clearly implied throughout the movie. Michael Moore has been a very avid supporter of gun control and views our inherent rights to own and bear them as making no sense now.

"[E]ver since [1812], the Second Amendment has been more like the Second Commandment. It made a lot of sense then; it makes no sense now." - Michael Moore June 4, 1999 Michaelmoore.com

As with his books and other movies questions about mistakes and distorted facts in this movie are constantly ignored or excused with him saying that it is satire. A very nice way to sidestep questions about his so called facts. He is most definitely not an intellectual and his opinions and comments shouldn't be taken for more than what they are, the assumptive musings of man who has used rhetoric and satire to become rich by promoting class warfare and other "progressive" ideals.

More great anti-gun fun...
http://64.247.33.250/lawrev/Lindgren.pdf

[dyomides]

I think the point of the movie is to get people to ask why are more people killed by guns in the USA than any other country in the world. By the end of the Documentary we are still left with the same question and no answers. The movie begs people to think about what exactly is wrong when every other country is dramatically lower in numbers than the USA. His approach might not be perfect but at least he's approached it.

D

[teenwolf]

To say that this movie was created only to promote intelligent dialogue, "to get people to ask why" etc, about guns in america is an inane suggestion at best. This movie is blatently obvious in its ideological leanings, I'm sorry to inform you but Michael Moore using his familiar in your face camera and interview tactics to try to insinuate or portray the other side as somehow being less intelligent and having no real "moral" or factual basis is neither factual, intelligent or "moral". It is propaganda, nothing more. He completely ignores, as do most leftists, the underlying basis for our founding fathers viewing gun ownership as an extremely important part of individual freedom. Michael instead reduces their beliefs and actions into something that was motivated purely by fear, instead of an ideological stand and statement about power and rights being inherent in man. There are many people who have approached this subject Moore is hardly the first to "brave" it, he is yet another who has approached the subject using rhetoric and propaganda to try to move peoples emotions and opinions instead of looking at the facts and real reasons behind America's underlying assumptions and love of personal freedom. The very things that are the real issues at hand.

The total number of people killed in highway crashes in 2001 was 42,945 compared to 41,945 in 2000, on average 114 people die each day in car crashes. The CDC estimates that in the US more than 100,000 people are hospitalized and more than 20,000 people die each year from the flu and its complications. The 2000 FBI Crime Index states that there was an estimated 15,517 murders in 2000.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/cius2000.htm
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/flu.htm
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/annou...e=pr55-02.html

The Clinton Justice Department found that there are as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year (National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America" Research in Brief, May 1997). States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3% (John R. Lott Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime"). As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse (Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164). In 1996, there were about 150,000 police officers on duty at any one time to protect a population of more than 260 million Americans, or more than 1,700 citizens per officer. I could go on and on and on, I think you get the picture though. Guns protect the right of the individual to defend themselves instead of relying on some governmental entity which most of the time is unwilling or unable to fully protect the rights of each individual.

As for our crime numbers here in the US as compared to other countries.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1184515.stm

The United States NON-GUN murder rate is higher than the TOTAL murder rates in England, Canada or Japan (Erik Eckholm, "A Basic Issue: Whose Hands Should Guns Be Kept Out of?" The New York Times, 3 April 1992; and Kates, Guns, Murders, and the
Constitution, at 42). "The problem is not the type of weapons used, but rather, the failure in America to keep violent criminals off the street.".

Fun when you have facts to deal with instead of just rhetoric, propaganda and pure faith eh?...

[piku]

I love you teenwolf!

[dyomides]

"The Clinton Justice Department found that there are as many as 1.5 million defensive users of firearms every year (National Institute of Justice, "Guns in America" Research in Brief, May 1997). States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3% (John R. Lott Jr., "More Guns, Less Violent Crime"). As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse (Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164). In 1996, there were about 150,000 police officers on duty at any one time to protect a population of more than 260 million Americans, or more than 1,700 citizens per officer. I could go on and on and on, I think you get the picture though. Guns protect the right of the individual to defend themselves instead of relying on some governmental entity which most of the time is unwilling or unable to fully protect the rights of each individual."


I'm sorry but I didn't get the impression that guns should be banned when I watched the movie so I don't know what the hell your defending. The fact remains that many people own guns the world over, why then are more people dying in USA from them then anywhere else in the world?

"The problem is not the type of weapons used, but rather, the failure in America to keep violent criminals off the street.".

As for that quote... how do you know who is going to become a criminal before he commits the crime, more specifically before he/she shoots someone.

As for your crime numbers, I don't see what that has to do with this since it includes all types of crimes including

"But researchers from the University of Leiden found people in England and Wales were most likely to have their car stolen, with 2.6% of owners suffering a theft, compared with 2.1% in Australia and 1.9% in France"

When kids start shooting other kids at school theres a problem whether you agree or not, whether you believe it's all propaganda or not, whether you think they deserved it or not, it is a problem. Are you going to walk around defending gun owners which I don't give a shit about or are you going to start asking yourself questions about what the problem might be, shit you don't even have to find the answer you just have to take a stance. I know in my community people will walk by and ignore one kid getting jumped by 10 other kids his age. I made a vow to defend the integrity of the neighborhood I want to raise my kids in. Too many people are taking the I don't give a shit approach in life, what kind of place do you want to raise your kids in?

D

[teenwolf]

Originally posted by piku
I love you teenwolf!

Thank you kind sir.

Originally posted by dyomides
I'm sorry but I didn't get the impression that guns should be banned when I watched the movie so I don't know what the hell your defending. The fact remains that many people own guns the world over, why then are more people dying in USA from them then anywhere else in the world?

As for that quote... how do you know who is going to become a criminal before he commits the crime, more specifically before he/she shoots someone.

As for your crime numbers, I don't see what that has to do with this since it includes all types of crimes including

"But researchers from the University of Leiden found people in England and Wales were most likely to have their car stolen, with 2.6% of owners suffering a theft, compared with 2.1% in Australia and 1.9% in France"

When kids start shooting other kids at school theres a problem whether you agree or not, whether you believe it's all propaganda or not, whether you think they deserved it or not, it is a problem. Are you going to walk around defending gun owners which I don't give a shit about or are you going to start asking yourself questions about what the problem might be, shit you don't even have to find the answer you just have to take a stance. I know in my community people will walk by and ignore one kid getting jumped by 10 other kids his age. I made a vow to defend the integrity of the neighborhood I want to raise my kids in. Too many people are taking the I don't give a shit approach in life, what kind of place do you want to raise your kids in?

D

My responses are directed towards the statements in the order they were made in.

Please read my previous post... I haven't been commenting on a ban on guns at all. I am commenting on michael moore, his movie and other peoples comments here about guns. As I showed in my last post, our NON-GUN murder rate is higher than the total murder rates in England, Canada or Japan. I also showed that we have more deaths from the flu and highway crashes than we do murders. Why are more people dying in the US than other countries? We have a problem with repeat offenders in this country and a failure to keep them in jail, and we have the failure of the mass compulsory education system to educate resulting in high illiteracy rates which is the highest single common factor among criminals. According to the DOJ 80 percent of the incarcerated violent criminal population is illiterate or nearly so, and 67 percent of all criminals locked up.

As for the quote, please read it again also. You may notice that it is qualified, "violent criminals". Then look up the word criminal, Oxford definition - criminal: a person who has committed a crime or crimes. That quote is obviously referring to repeat offenders and criminals currently incarcerated and the failure to keep them off the streets.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/rpr94.txt

"As for your crime numbers, I don't see what that has to do with this since it includes all types of crimes including "

Gun ownership is a deterrent to criminals including thieves, Britain has very strict gun control which makes their rapidly rising crime numbers all the more interesting.

Nice straw man, I never said that kids shooting other kids in school wasn't a problem, was deserved or was just propaganda... The real question is are you going to walk around condemning gun owners or are you going to start asking yourself questions about what the problem might be... The only problem you seem to pose and that I can see from your post is "kids shooting each other" and "guns", that is it. Take a stance? You are kidding right? What exactly have I been doing here and what have I been supporting? I have taken a stand against the propaganda and rhetoric in Michael Moores film, that has been the point of my posts. We weren't talking about the solution to violence in schools, but as can be seen from my statement earlier in this post I obviously have taken a stand and have opinions and solutions to what I consider the problem to be. The problem is our current mass compulsory school system which has failed to properly educate our children, and will continue to do so no matter how much money we pump into it. "A study by Dennis Hogenson "Reading Failure and Juvenile Delinquency" (Reading Reform Foundation) attempted to correlate teenage aggression with age, family size, numbers of parents present in home, rural versus urban enviroment, socio-economic status, minority group membership, and religious preference. None of these factors produced a significant correlation. But one did. As the author reports, "Only reading failure was found to correlate with aggression in both populations of delinquent boys.". As for you, what solution to the problem are you supporting? I see absolutely none in your statements, all you do is acknowledge that "kids are shooting other kids. Not much of a stand if you asked me...