Shinobi

[xS]

8B is the last level right?

[Drewbacca]

Originally posted by MechDeus
Yeah, how dare they do the smart thing and allow manual control! Those fights would've been so much better if they had been like DMC or LotR:TTT and enemies could smack you from off-screen because you have no way to see in certain directions!

BTW: Lock-on works wonders with the camera.

So somebody else is doing a worse job with the camera therefore it makes their system better? I don't think so. The static camera, when you don't alter it should have been brought out more so you could see more of the parking lot, instead they FORCE us to manipulate the camera with no real standard and with the views they give you sometimes it becomes apparant that it's pointless as you can barely see.

in Two Towers, you do get hit offscreen and it's lame. I know WHY they don't allow you to change the camera, because I'm pretty sure they only produced the minimum amount of onscreen graphics to allow them to look better and the fixed angle helps their 'goal'. Again, either 'solution' isn't very successful for its gaming practice.

The boss fight isn't as entertaining as it could've been, but there has to be some sort of angle they could have put in a fixed standpoint to allow maximum viewing potential for the scene. Then, if I didn't like it I could've moved the camera someplace else, then it would've been moreso my fault. Instead they don't give you a recommended or standard camera so you're fighting nothing. Oh and in Shinobi you can get hit offscreen as well.

[MechDeus]

Originally posted by Andrew
So somebody else is doing a worse job with the camera therefore it makes their system better? I don't think so. The static camera, when you don't alter it should have been brought out more so you could see more of the parking lot, instead they FORCE us to manipulate the camera with no real standard and with the views they give you sometimes it becomes apparant that it's pointless as you can barely see.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell you just said. Translate?

The boss fight isn't as entertaining as it could've been, but there has to be some sort of angle they could have put in a fixed standpoint to allow maximum viewing potential for the scene.

Considering it's a square arena where the boss moves in circles around the perimeter, maximum viewing angle would be with the camera pointed straight down and raised high enough so that the arena fills the screen. That would also make the fight unlike any other (as this wouldn't help most boss fights) and could possibly also make it more difficult to win (as you'd be dealing with an overhead view while trying to Tate something in mid-air). It'd be really odd and quite removed.

Instead they don't give you a recommended or standard camera so you're fighting nothing.

What do you mean by "recommended camera?" And why do you consider behind-the-back not a standard camera placement?

Oh and in Shinobi you can get hit offscreen as well.

Difference is, it's in your control. When you get hit off-screen in Shinobi it's your own fault for not keeping track of the enemies (there's rarely more then a singular group present, it's rarely not obvious where they are), whereas in LotR:TTT or DMC you have no way to see in certain directions and are at the mercy of the game. Maybe you enjoy non-controllable cameras, but I've found that having the ability to re-center and move the camera myself makes it ten times easier to see in a game.

[sggg]

Quick question....... which lock-on type does everyone prefer?

I finally decided to try "click"... and I like it but sometimes it annoys me. So, I keep switching back and forth between the two options but I cannot make up my mind which one I prefer. I kinda wish you could switch mid-level because there are some areas either one seems to be more appopriate. So, I'd like to see what everyone else thinks.

[MechDeus]

Originally posted by sggg
Quick question....... which lock-on type does everyone prefer?

I use hold, as it allows me to regulate it easier. When mid-air dashing I'll hold long enough to get my target and then let go and hold again mid-slash. If I used click I'd probably confuse my button timing from pressing it so fast and screw myself up.

[Drewbacca]

Originally posted by MechDeus
Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell you just said. Translate?
Considering it's a square arena where the boss moves in circles around the perimeter, maximum viewing angle would be with the camera pointed straight down and raised high enough so that the arena fills the screen. That would also make the fight unlike any other (as this wouldn't help most boss fights) and could possibly also make it more difficult to win (as you'd be dealing with an overhead view while trying to Tate something in mid-air). It'd be really odd and quite removed.What do you mean by "recommended camera?" And why do you consider behind-the-back not a standard camera placement?Difference is, it's in your control. When you get hit off-screen in Shinobi it's your own fault for not keeping track of the enemies (there's rarely more then a singular group present, it's rarely not obvious where they are), whereas in LotR:TTT or DMC you have no way to see in certain directions and are at the mercy of the game. Maybe you enjoy non-controllable cameras, but I've found that having the ability to re-center and move the camera myself makes it ten times easier to see in a game.

The camera doesn't stay fixed behind you, with you running into god knows what (mostly soldiers) for most of the battle. They also control the helicopter movement you know, so they could've altered flight patterns to alot a better camera.

A simple long view with a high angle would've done alot better. You wouldn't be fixated entirely on Shinobi, but you'd be able to see alot of the feild preventing offscreen ambushes and disorientation.

It's in my control? So that's the answer... like I said they couldn't find a solution so they threw it to the user to blame. If they had a solution (bad design or whatever the problem at hand was) they would've taken it.

That is poor game design. Enemies spawn behind you in the game in some cases, so 'keeping track' with a faulty camera makes it a chore, not a goal.

I don't enjoy those camera 'solutions' in DMC and Two Towers either, but the way Shinobi handled it isn't a step up any better.

sggg: I just use the default scheme. He wasn't locking on very well but I never had a problem really fighting my way by. It was just frustrating with the poor camera for me, oh and the story I laughed at when it wasn't supposed to be funny.

I guess it's just something you like or you don't. I'm picking the game up for 20.00 or greatest hits, but there's no way I'm paying full price for a game litered with camera issues so blatantly ignored.

[MechDeus]

The camera doesn't stay fixed behind you, with you running into god knows what (mostly soldiers) for most of the battle.

Yeah, stupid camera re-center button. How dare it work!

They also control the helicopter movement you know, so they could've altered flight patterns to alot a better camera.

It ran in extremely low-flying circles, how would the flight pattern change to make it better? The only reason you should ever lose sight of it is from attempting a Tate, and a quick spin while pressing lock-on will get back in your sights in less then a second.

Enemies spawn behind you in the game in some cases, so 'keeping track' with a faulty camera makes it a chore, not a goal.

I'm not sure if you realized it, but there's a lock-on button. Face Hotsuma in a direction and press it and the camera will lock-on to an enemy in that direction, no matter where it's initially facing. Don't blame Sega because you're too lazy to press a button.

I don't enjoy those camera 'solutions' in DMC and Two Towers either, but the way Shinobi handled it isn't a step up any better.

So you're saying a complete inability to see what one is doing is just the same as being able to look whereever whenever?

[Drewbacca]

Originally posted by MechDeus
Yeah, stupid camera re-center button. How dare it work! It ran in extremely low-flying circles, how would the flight pattern change to make it better? The only reason you should ever lose sight of it is from attempting a Tate, and a quick spin while pressing lock-on will get back in your sights in less then a second.I'm not sure if you realized it, but there's a lock-on button. Face Hotsuma in a direction and press it and the camera will lock-on to an enemy in that direction, no matter where it's initially facing. Don't blame Sega because you're too lazy to press a button.So you're saying a complete inability to see what one is doing is just the same as being able to look whereever whenever?

The issue at hand isn't that there's no control over the camera, the problem is the over abundance of control in the camera and the lack of a fixed state. A fix state does not mean altering it to keep it there for seconds, it's the exact opposite of what I am saying.

Yeah, attempting Tate, OR simply attacking enemies which threaten you from offscreen or who are on your tail. A fixed camera view in one of the corners at a medium-high angle over the fence with a limited helicopter fly pattern in the remaining 3 corners would allow full visibility of the parking lot. A simple solution for a bad design.

I will blame Sega. When you lock on the camera doesn't exactly move with you, does it? Fighting invisible men is fun and all, but they don't make for purty graphics.

Yes, exactly Mech Dues. But instead of taking the point out of context, you could include the point about the fixed camera cutting down on an optimized viewing of the battle. Control ISN'T always the solution, and the problem is that developers think it is.

ICO is the best example, ever. The camera follows you fluently. To cope for Hotsumis speed (as you undoubtedly were about to throw into this pot) you could simply zoom out a scoch and capture a broader area for the action without losing detail.

So you're saying a complete inability to see what one is doing ...

No, that is the problem, you cannot see what you're fighting for the majority of the battle. Moving the camera shouldn't be apart of the gameplay in my view.

[MechDeus]

Yeah, attempting Tate, OR simply attacking enemies which threaten you from offscreen or who are on your tail.

You mean the ones that you should be dropping for a Tate attempt? In any case, no matter who they are my point still stands. They can all be killed and your view returned to the helicoptor in a couple seconds.

A fixed camera view in one of the corners at a medium-high angle over the fence with a limited helicopter fly pattern in the remaining 3 corners would allow full visibility of the parking lot. A simple solution for a bad design.

A simple, flawed solution. For starters, the cars would hamper the ability to see Hotsuma and the opposing ninja, and secondly it would create the same effect as the Ghost Ship in DMC: Everything's so far away you can't see a damn thing. It would ruin Tate attempts and would make dashing to the back painful (with the camera pulled back you can't see exactly how close two enemies lined up with screen are, which will alter how a back-dash can be done). Anything thrown would be too small to be seen, and lining up with the helicoptors attacks would be twice as hard.

When you lock on the camera doesn't exactly move with you, does it?

It moves with your lock-on, just as it should.

But instead of taking the point out of context, you could include the point about the fixed camera cutting down on an optimized viewing of the battle.

What did you just say?

ICO is the best example, ever. The camera follows you fluently.

Ico's camera sucks when it comes to fighting, which, I might remind you, is all that Shinobi is. Combined with the large amount of fast platform jumping that Shinobi has and Ico's camera would be absolutely horrible, especially for the speed and distance judging required. Yes, even pulled out.

The only reason Ico's camera works is because it's normally a slow-paced exploration game. Enemies frequently disappear off-screen and the female (name eludes me) will often get stolen off-screen and chase will have to be done completely blind. As soon as any action occurs, Ico's camera falls apart.

Moving the camera shouldn't be apart of the gameplay in my view.

I realize that lock-on button still eludes you, but I'm sure you'll be able to figure out which one it is one day. Maybe one day when you've mastered this skill you can move on to other great games that use it, like ZOoT or SkyGunner.

[Blaze]

Andrew, I think it's safe to say at this point that you haven't played Shinobi.

The camera was perfect. I played through normal, hard, and very hard modes and never had a camera issue.

See that? I just made an interesting point without making a six paragraph essay to back it up =P