Why do people like "exploration" or "maze" games?

[Victrix]

what does a stupid puzzle have to do with exploration? the two aren't inseparably linked

[Hero]

is it just me or is opa-opa suffering a Prime relapse? It's as if the one game has caused agnst against an entire genre...

[Masaka]

To answer the original question, the fun from these types of games comes in exploring an interesting world that's presented in an interesting way.

You can boil it down to "go here, get this piece of equipment/key/item so that you can progress to this area/boss/etc" but you can do that with any game if you really wanted to. I could boil Street Fighter down to "Hit the other guy until his life goes away" or any shooter down to "press this button repeatedly and dodge bullets" Does that accurately describe the experience of playing Super Turbo, CvS2, Ikaruga, Space Megaforce, etc etc? To people who don't like those games or those generes I'm sure it does.

What matters, for anything you play really, is what you get out of it when you are playing. If you're not getting anything out of it, then don't play it.

DHG: Keep in mind that what's being talked about is general "exploration" type games, not necessarily about a game that plunks a puzzle or a key hunt in the middle of another game. Nobody likes pointless puzzles, unless of course you're this guy.

[SearchManX]

I like how those blocks are helpfully labeled.

Resident Evil and Soul Reaver are two games that immediately come to mind... though both are games I like too...

[Tracer]

Originally posted by SearchManX
You're right, I meant NON linear.

Although they're made differently, a game that requires so many variables of possibilities is still tougher to create than a linear game like Mega Man because you need to track every possible outcome that the player may or may not try. RE0 is one example of this, because the main characters, Billy and Rebecca, each have their own special skill, Billy can move heavy objects, and Rebecca can mix chemicals. There are times where their path splits, and it would be easy for you to go down one path with the wrong character, unable to backtrack and unable to proceed any further because of your character's lack of that special skill needed. However, Capcom did a good job of tying all the loose ends so that you wouldn't get stuck.

And I don't know about you, but RE's puzzles have never "not" made any sense...

Nonono you see you don't have to account for the player... Will Wright said when he made games, he made a world that the players can interact with as they choose. 'It comes with rules that we define but what the player does within those rules and boundaries is entirely up to them.' Hence the whole database thing. I find it more difficult to lay-out the actions and events exactly as you (the developer) would have it and yes - when using the same approach as Capcom did with RE is would be a hurculean task - oh wait - I think they call that Shenmue.

The long and short of it is: games like The Sims and Morrowind are not at all made like Shenmue and definitly not Resident Evil (not compareing the games, just they way they are made and the ideas behind making them work). They designed a world, a graphics engine, and created a HUGE (massive beyond beleif) database of items, semi-fixed objects (like doors), materials, characters and a variable.. the variable is filled in by you. What happens in the game is entirely dependant on you so making a non-linear game is diffrent. Not easy but certainly no harder than the games Capcom or Sega or Nintendo makes (though Nintendo's Animal Crossing is uncharacteristicly open-ended for a Eastern game).

As to the puzzles not making sence:

"Even a mad man seems resonable once you accept his terms"

--I forgot who had said that.

All I know is that turning a telescope, no matter where it's at, is not usually prone to opening doors.

ºTracer
..wait.. that was Eternal Darkness, but there are other examples.. like playing a tune on a piano or adjusting a clock or moving shit off of walls.

Originally posted by Victrix
um, what are you addressing Tracer? I was talking about the exploration and linearity of those games, not the puzzles.

It was a tangent, not directly refering to exploration on the whole. But often puzzles mandate exploration (though not the other way around). When someone tells me that there's puzzles in the game I instantly get turned off because frequently they are illogical and/or inane. I enjoy figureing things out, but only when it's left up to me to resolve a way to get from where I am to where I want or need to be. I do not enjoy trying to figure out what specific task the developer wants me to do.

I want the spell of Summon Golden Saint - ut by golly it wasn't like I could waltz into a store and buy it. I had to talk around, hit up the hated Telavanni and make fast friends with someone who could tell me where to go and then I had to, on my own, figure out how to get there (which was simply a matter of learning out to levitate). As an example.

To get off the tangent - Linearity and Exploration do not mix IMO. If you want to it's fine, but it shouldn't be requisite. These games are linear for a reason yes?

ºTracer

[Cowutopia]

LEGEND OF ZELDA-Every game is worth every minute of exploration (except maybe majora's mask), and it's freaking fun, especially when ocarina came out, who DIDN'T want to explore that gorgeous place? And Mario 64! I ran/run around in those games (Sunshine, too, even though it's not that great a game) Just because it is pretty, and I like to see what I can do and I can see. It's an epic feeling climbing to the top of that volcano, i forget what it's called now, crap. It's marvellous in the first game to go all the way to that one section to the extreme right of the map and find that old dude in the mountain, and get that cool reward. Majora's mask was too much though...all this running around. If designed cleverly, the exploration shouldn't be too tedious, because you will either pass through new areas, discover new things when returning to old ones, solve mysteries and answer questions you had when passing through levels before, and it shouldn't take an INSANE amount of time. You just have to balance it all out. The only temple I didn't love in Ocarina was the water temple. That was a pain in the ass, but then again I guess one really hard temple was necessary...

Oh and speaking of puzzles and how they're mostly inane...Think of the design team of Ocarina producing a GOOD Indiana Jones game with simlar gameplay, and options to explore worldwide archealogical sites to try to get certain kickass artifacts...If they designed the temples well, the puzzles could very well be some of the best, the action exciting and mysterious, you know the same elements that make the movies so great, and the environments fantastic. These are my gaming dreams, instead we get the actual indiana jones games...My how I'd love to be Dr. Jones.

And BTW, Res. Evil's Puzzles make me want to eat my controller.

[Victrix]

Originally posted by TracerBullet
To get off the tangent - Linearity and Exploration do not mix IMO. If you want to it's fine, but it shouldn't be requisite. These games are linear for a reason yes?
ºTracer

Generally, yup. Personally, I'm fond of both types, linear, non linear, big or small. I'm not especially fond of Stupid Puzzles (which is why I don't buy RE games, I rent them, play them once, and I'm done).

I will say that non-linear games are generally the pervue of PC titles, and they often have serious, serious balance issues (Morrowind again, has many, many terribly exploitable loopholes in the game). This isn't always the case, but there are usually problems with them (eg, Deus Ex is a linear game with somewhat non linear puzzles - but it's usually easiest just to blast your way through everything, which is unfortunate).

On the other hand, amusing (to me) is the fact that the few non-linear games on the consoles get blasted by most fans (see Saga Frontier 1, Legend of Mana). I like those as well

You can stick me in the 'I like games' camp. Why do I like exploration games? They're fun. I like exploring. Exploring is only one aspect of them anyway, I can't name a 'pure' exploration game offhand.

Why do I like maze games? uh, what's a maze game? :P

[Tracer]

Originally posted by Victrix
Generally, yup. Personally, I'm fond of both types, linear, non linear, big or small. I'm not especially fond of Stupid Puzzles (which is why I don't buy RE games, I rent them, play them once, and I'm done).

I will say that non-linear games are generally the pervue of PC titles, and they often have serious, serious balance issues (Morrowind again, has many, many terribly exploitable loopholes in the game). This isn't always the case, but there are usually problems with them (eg, Deus Ex is a linear game with somewhat non linear puzzles - but it's usually easiest just to blast your way through everything, which is unfortunate).

On the other hand, amusing (to me) is the fact that the few non-linear games on the consoles get blasted by most fans (see Saga Frontier 1, Legend of Mana). I like those as well

You can stick me in the 'I like games' camp. Why do I like exploration games? They're fun. I like exploring. Exploring is only one aspect of them anyway, I can't name a 'pure' exploration game offhand.

Why do I like maze games? uh, what's a maze game? :P

There absolutely is balace issues in Morrowind (and some other PC games) but it's forgiveable since it's a single player game and you won't likely find the loopholes till your 2nd or 3rd time though.

I never played Saga Frontier though :/ I'll bet 'geting blasted' has a lot to do with it being from Squaresoft. Star Ocean had a somewhat non-linear design, being that what you saw in the game would be distincly diffrent from what someone else saw in the game (i.e. Personal Events and Actions and Items Creation). Although the endings are interchaneable I do like the fact that I am in some contol over what happens in the end (which is why I don't normally like Japanese RPGs).

I like games too I like them as entertainment, a competition, to serve my imagination and to help me gain more insight on just how more and more games get made (curiousity).

[burgundy]

I dunno, I think people bought SaGa Frontier because it was Squaresoft, then blasted it because it wasn't Final Fantasy.

[Dyne]

saga frontier sucked....my gawd.