Why do people like "exploration" or "maze" games?

[Jeremy]

Stone, that same logic works in the RE games. To an extent.

[Werewolf]

Originally posted by Stone
Why do you like hard games?

I mean, it's a good question, isn't it? There are enough challenging things out there in the real world that there's no real reason you should be spending time challenging yourself in front of a television. If you want something challenging, why don't you go out and try to start a business, or sleep with more women, or develop your chip shot, or whatever? And, is it healthy to have your need for challenge fulfilled through video games when there are so many better ways to apply your natural abilities?

Ok, define hard then

Much like everything else people range in thier abilities, like one person might be a natural basketball player and another may not, so something rather easy for one may not be as easy for the other... the same principal can be applied to any given activity, some are more talented toward certain things and pick things up fairly easy while another person may never accomplish the same things the other can even with twice the amount of training.

What I am trying to say is what might be hard for one person may not for another, so if harder games or levels didn't exist the ones that are really good with games would be easily bored much like sticking a advanced math student in a basic course

I guess it wouldn't be as much fun playing a game that is too easy, if something doesn't challenge me I become bored with it because it becomes way to automatic much like redundent tasks at work... I like to face a challenge in uncertainty in video games because there is much less to lose then real life, not to say I don't take risks in real life just not nearly as many

[Stone]

Originally posted by sggg
Maybe there is not a "need" to play challenging videogames, but I think it's much more worthwhile than playing games that are pointlessly easy. If you are going to play something it may as well be challenging or what's the point?

Oh, exactly - that's basicaly my argument for why I dislike RPGs, exploration games, and anything of another genre that's too easy. I just like the idea that there are probably hordes of chicks out there playing the Sims that would raise this question if they thought about the situation enough or had an inclination to participate in gaming discussion like this.

And, I guess I like hard video games because the golfing range shuts down for winter (which lasts about half of the year here), the Squash courts are a 20-minutes-in-freezing-weather walk away, and I don't always have a person to play against. Real life's challenges aren't consistent and it's hard to have them appear when you want them to. Video games are fun because they offer challenge-on-demand...if I didn't have them I'd probably, I dunno, be better at sports?

[burgundy]

Originally posted by sggg
If you are going to play something it may as well be challenging or what's the point?

Challenge can be something other than pressing the right buttons at precisely the right time. And games can be fun and entertaining even if they're not challenging.

[sggg]

Originally posted by Stone
I'm not suggesting that the Ice Ray placement is random - just suggesting that the deductive ability necessary to make a leap from "I need Ice Beam" to "let's start wandering around to look for the Ice Beam" is so minor (and that logic so simple) that it's hardly any deductive ability at all.

Real deductive challenge would involve something like what you found in Lucasarts' SCUMM games - you see some hair on the floor that you can't pick up with your fingers. So, you think for a while and start looking for something that could suck stuff up. You think, ahah, Vacuum, and given that you understand SCUMM logic, you think hm, if I combine the motor, that shopping bag, and a dustpan, (all in your inventory) maybe I could make a Vacuum. Still pretty stupid, but there's a more expansive (if more obtuse) logic involved with that than there would be in something like - "I guess I should go look around until I find the gun that shoots blue stuff to open the blue door".

I think Stone makes an excellent point. That's not to say that "finding the gun that shoots blue stuff" can't be fun.. but it isn't exactly sophisticated logic either.


Also, his example reminds me of MDK2 - which I just bought. Now that's a fun game.

[Jeremy]

The ease or difficulty rarely factors into my enjoyment of the game. Unless a game is unfairly hard (IE- unavoidable damage) or inexcusably easy.

[sggg]

Originally posted by burgundy
Challenge can be something other than pressing the right buttons at precisely the right time. And games can be fun and entertaining even if they're not challenging.

There has to be some kind of challenge though. Something to hold your interest. The challenging aspect does not need to be reflex/twitch based. The challenge can be puzzle-based, logic-based, or anything other kind of challenge. It also does not need to be super-hard or anything. The emphasis can be on fun over difficulty, but there needs to be some challenge, or I really don't see the point.

After all, if there is not a challenge can it even be called a "game"?

[Stone]

Originally posted by sggg
There has to be some kind of challenge though. Something to hold your interest. The challenging aspect does not need to be reflex/twitch based. The challenge can be puzzle-based, logic-based, or anything other kind of challenge. It also does not need to be super-hard or anything. The emphasis can be on fun over difficulty, but there needs to be some challenge, or I really don't see the point.

After all, if there is not a challenge can it even be called a "game"?

Ahah! Exactly. This is why I think "game" is the wrong word for Final Fantasy, and at times even for something like Metroid - the word "experience" makes more sense when you're trying to define them.

Final Fantasy does have gameplay, of a sort (equip better weapons, use Water on Fire monster, hit these buttons in these sequences, heal if you're hurt, manage your limit breaks or whatever they're called), but it's not difficult, and as such I don't really even think that it ought to be called gameplay.

Difficulty is the POINT of a game - it's why games exist, to provide difficulty. Providing a daydream (like many movies/TV shows) is the point of an RPG/exploration experience.

Another question then comes up - "What about games that are too hard? Should Battletoads be one of the best games ever simply because it's so hard, and if so, how can it be great when most people never got past the first hoverboard sequence?"

I guess what I would say is that if a game's challenge barrier is too high, then a player isn't ever going to be able to experience the skill-development that is what makes games like that enjoyable. I guess you want an initially accessible level of difficulty that somehow ramps upward towards being impossible as a player gets better.

[sggg]

Originally posted by Stone
Oh, exactly - that's basicaly my argument for why I dislike RPGs, exploration games, and anything of another genre that's too easy.

Well, this is where I disagree a bit. Many RPGs are really easy, but they can still be challenging. Many of them have really challenging puzzle aspects, for example. I can understand if someone does not like puzzles where you need to move boxes and flip switches, but you can't say that some of the puzzle aspects found in RPGs are not challenging.

Also, many RPGs have challenging combat systems. Yes, they can often be overcome by levelling up. But there can still be a lot of strategy and planning involved.

That's not even mentioning action-RPG or strategy-RPG sub-genres.

If all RPGs were not challenging they'd just be movies. If they were not challenging there would not be a bunch of RPGs I never finished when I was little because I simply got stuck.

Originally posted by Stone
Difficulty is the POINT of a game - it's why games exist, to provide difficulty. Providing a daydream (like many movies/TV shows) is the point of an RPG/exploration experience.

I think it depends on the RPG and the kind of RPG because some of the games have challenging puzzle and combat. It's not the same kind of difficulty you may find in other genres, but RPGs can be difficult (especially if you count aRPG and sRPG games).

So, I kinda agree. Many RPGs are too easy and it can sometimes ruin the fun of the game... but many are challenging enough to be more than an "experience" IMO.

[Yamcha]

Opa: Wait a minute....how is what you said any different from, say, Phantasy Star, which you say you like?