Why are old school RPGs held in such high esteem?

[Gutsman]

This bears repeating.

Most of the people on this board probably work in retail, gas stations, or don't even work. So what is so bad about Pizza Hut?

[Drewbacca]

I guess some people don't understand that college isn't free. Maybe their parents helped them with their post-secondary education or something, but it isn't free.

[Omni]

Yet I was talking about gameplay, not design. Did you forget that we were talking about that? This is what you were sour about me saying. You play a Final Fantasy pretty much the same way, which was my point.

I never said anything about design. You did.

I think I've figured out your problem. You're trying to pigeon hole certain aspects of a game into the area of "game design" when in reality everything about a game constitutes game design. Saying that one thing is game design and another is not means nothing, and is inherently wrong.

Secondly, you seem to think that gameplay has to do solely with how the player controls the character, when in reality gameplay is how the game plays. Example: In Diablo you click on an enemy and your character goes and attacks the enemy. It's a very simple process, but there's a multitude of things going on behind the scenes that directly affect what happens in the encounter. Is the THACO low enough? What about the Armor Class? How high is the character's Saving Throw? Is the character resistant to this type of magic spell? All these things directly affect what happens when I click on that enemy, and are thus part of the gameplay. It's not just as simple as me clicking on a monster, it's also what that click does in terms of the systems and internal processes of the game. Hell, even choosing a dialouge option is part of the gameplay.

An example of something that is part of game design but not gameplay would be how a character looks, acts, feels, the story he/she is a part of. All the superfulous stuff, everything that can be gotten rid of and still have an actual "game" (barring the actual graphics).

I realize this is all mostly theory, and I realize that you're entitled to your own, but it's horribly flawed in my eyes (and apparantly others as well).

Andrew:
You have your own gaming company, but you also work at Pizza Hut? Can you elaborate a bit please? You seem to have a very interesting background.

Maybe Opa and Andrew will start a gaming company.

[MechDeus]

No, they aren't. All of the games in the series have design elements that are exclusive to that game. All of them have things that are pieced and threaded through the entire series. The gameplay stays the same. Game Design isn't what I was talking about.

Um, perhaps you forgot what you said. Read your post again:

My original arguement was that they play alike. Not about gameplay which this turned in to.

How in God's name could you possibly talk about how a game plays without talking about gameplay? And, if you noticed, none of that nor what I responded with had anything to do with game design. Once again, you're the one who keeps bringing that up, and once again it was out of thin air with no basis on anything said.

Yet a trained mechanic with education wouldn't say that.

Then why did you?

Andrew, if you have to keep making things up about both what others said and what you previously said, then perhaps you should just bow out. I would say before you make yourself look like an ass, but that line was crossed a long time ago.

At the very least, there is one person who sorta agrees with you. Although I think that's more just because Opa realized he finally has a common warrior in the battle against coherence then it is because he actually believes what you do. But hey, sometimes you just need to take what you can get.

[Gutsman]

Mech:
It's funny how you think his posts are so incoherent, yet you can't stop yourself from replying to them.

[Saint of Killers]

It's not too hard to understand. My occupation is as an employee at Pizza hut. I'm making a game with my money and spare time when I'm not going to school. (at night time or whenever the schedule allows).

Working on a game in your spare time doesn't grant you any deep insight into game design.

Most of the people on this board probably work in retail, gas stations, or don't even work. So what is so bad about Pizza Hut?

I work in retail and I used to work for Dominoes. I'm not belittling his job, I'm pointing out that he doesn't know any more about developing games than anyone else in this thread.

And it's better than being unemployed in your thirties, like some people in this thread.

[StriderKyo]

Most of the people on this board probably work in retail, gas stations, or don't even work.

And yet most of them don't claim to be "game designers".

Btw, I just started programming my own version of Lunar Lander in my spare time. It's so cool - it's got everything hardcore oldschool fans of the original loved, except now the ship bleeds when you land. I'm calling it Xtreme Blood Lander: Fist of the Lichee. 0MG, I am teh Gmae desginer! I know everything abot games, which obviously makes you feigned gastronomy.

I mean, would a mechanic who repairs cars in his spare time when he gets home from Pizza Hut and school, is finished his obtuse and his homework and his webcomic and his nonsensical arguments on the internet say what you said? I would think not! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go defenestrate a baseball game.

[Saint of Killers]

I'm a game designer, too. I had to make Battleship in my C++ class last year. Please don't masticate us developers who are forced to beozar in our spare time.

[MechDeus]

Mech:
It's funny how you think his posts are so incoherent, yet you can't stop yourself from replying to them.

Yeah, like I was saying about you...

[Drewbacca]

Mech Deus: You're not talking about gameplay when gameplay is what you control technically inside a game.

I never claimed to be a master designer. But anybody who has worked on a game can tell you what separates the two.

Final Fantasy 3 in comparison to Final Fantasy X hasn't changed drastically to call them different systems. They've barely changed at all.

OmniGear: Game Design is how you use the pieces of the puzzle of a game. The Lead Director will get everything in to synch and try to make the best game he can with the talent provided. He is the person that decides (well, maybe a senior talent) what Cloud will do when you select special 4 in the program (which would be displayed as the name on screen by a corresponding variable)

The fact still remains: Final Fantasy's gameplay has not changed from the early days, and is separated by story and graphics.

Care to tell me what I made up, though, Mech Deus? I notice you never give direct examples with your accusations.

I mean, would a mechanic who repairs cars in his spare time when he gets home from Pizza Hut and school, is finished his obtuse and his homework and his webcomic and his nonsensical arguments on the internet say what you said? I would think not! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go defenestrate a baseball game.

Actually, if you worked on a game for real and had merit as you say, I could take your word seriously.

A mechanic who learns his trade in his spare time can be just as good as a mechanic that went to college. Especially for something so factual as the difference between design and gameplay. (or equivalent, in auto)

Some people know how to fix cars that don't work in a garage you know. And it doesn't mean your muffler will fall off a 1/2 mile down the road.

My arguement has been coherant:

The Old School FF's and new school FF's have the same basic gameplay. You asked how I know. And I do because I have some experience in making videogames. Do you have experience? No. This is like telling a mechanic with experience that engines between Civic models are different from car to car in fundamentals. And the old ones have a totally different engine made in Germany or something like that.

It's wrong. Cars have the same basic engineers working on their model.

Until Final Fantasy actually has an engine that is more realtime and contains gameplay more then menus, it will be the same basic gameplay in every game.

From now on I should just say:

Says the man with no experience. Because that sums it up. I'd like you to explain to me why you think game design and play are the same thing.