Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith

[Despair]

Darth Maul was an amazing fighter. Obi Wan got lucky in killing him.

Its not luck. Its fuckin requirement for good to win over evil, and the fact that Obi One lived till later day when Vader killed him. So Gergie made Maul first to be a bad ass fighter, and then set him die like a complete friggin idiot, just standing there. Oh well, I already said this countless number of times.

Griveous designs looks pretty cool, but I cant really comment on him yet, since I havent seen him in action. And why is he wearing a white cape?

[MechDeus]

And about the Jedi not fearing him, I again atribute this to his poor writing.

Sure. Still happened nevertheless.

The whole first movie built up Quigon to be the father Anakin never had.

Or to show a crapload of backstory for arguably the main character of this arc, Obi-Wan.

It was a good move by Lucas, because it gave us some insight into why Vadar wanted to have a relationship with his son so much, and why he eventually gave up his thrown for it.

Anakin did that because his own flesh and blood gave him the realization that he had finally gone too far and that the Emperor's coldness was all he left after a lifetime of hatred. Luke was strong enough to help make right what Vader and Palpatine had done, and Vader finally recognized what it was that they all had become.

In short: It had all of nothing to do with Quigon.

If Maul hadn't of killed Quigon, Anakin wouldn't of fell to the darkside. The whole point was that his family, not blood family but real family, was taken from him. The death of his mother was the real turning point for him in the story arch thus far. He admired Quigon as the father he never had.

There's this little character you're forgetting named Palpatine who would've used his power to turn Anakin no matter what happened to Quigon. Really, Quigon was nothing in the scheme of things.

That's also the reason why Anakins mother was basically the Mary of the story, a virgin mother.

No, that and the cell crap came from Lucas being a bad writer. That whole thing was just a big pile of idiotic writing with no one having the balls to tell Lucas he needed to rewrite that bit. It was straight up retarded.

I guess I missed the part where the Empire wasn't ruling the galaxy the first one.

I'm guessing you're trying to use sarcasm here, even though that sentence isn't written right for whichever "first one" you're referring to. In any case, it doesn't matter whether or not they were ruling, as those who knew Vader knew to fear him and those who knew Maul knew to whoop his ass.

The name Darth was a label of power and strength. When you upset somebody with the name Darth, chances are you're going to die.

The Jedi were all but dead in IV-VI, Empire soldiers didn't two shits about the title of Darth or any Jedi but were scared of Vader himself.

Who didn't care about Maul? Most people recognize him as one of the most bad ass dark Jedi because of his blade work in the first movie.

I meant people as in characters in the movie.

when you go nuts in a fight, you lose focus and get cut in half,

When someone younger, faster, and in physically better shape then you pounds on you with a sword with all their strength it's pretty goddamn hard to even move out of the way without making sure you don't lose limbs, let alone win the fight because "they weren't focused."

[Captain Vegetable]

Sure. Still happened nevertheless.

That's an awfully lame excuse for your line of reasoning.

Especially after having attributed the whole "Shmi as Mary" bit to the same damned thing.

Either Lucas is a bad writer and we need to discount certain things, or even though he's a bad writer the scripts are still cannon.

[MechDeus]

That's an awfully lame excuse for your line of reasoning.

Huh? Something happened because someone doesn't know how to write and it's my fault for recognizing that? I'm sorry, I'll try to pretend that Episode I didn't happen the way it happened, all the characters acted different, there wasn't the "Yippee!" or the midoclorians, people acted differently towards Maul and he was an interesting character, and Amidala was not in fact the galaxy's most expensive dress-up doll.

[frostwolf ex]

.When someone younger, faster, and in physically better shape then you pounds on you with a sword with all their strength it's pretty goddamn hard to even move out of the way without making sure you don't lose limbs, let alone win the fight because "they weren't focused."

in the real world, this takes place in a world where special people can use a magical force to make them stronger faster, etc. in reality ian mckellen would be pretty useless in a sword fight, but in the reality of gnadalf, he killed battle-ready orcs with little effort. Vader was a prodigy even as the jedi went, in that reality he would have been nearly impossible to beat by an opponent of any age or physical level, he lost because luke co-opted the dark side for himself not because of his physical level. also, vader was mostly mechanical, so health and age as we know it would have been irrelivant, as his body would not have aged like ours would have,.

[MechDeus]

Damn you and your edits.

Especially after having attributed the whole "Shmi as Mary" bit to the same damned thing.

Anakin used Quigon as a reference because he was being pushed by Palpatine and he knew the relationship between Obi-Wan and Quigon. Screwing with Obi-Wan about Quigon was his own way of trying to exert control over Obi-Wan. "Quigon would let me do this! Quigon would let me do that!" What child doesn't push their limits like that to their parents, their friend's parents, their friends and/or their teachers in real life all the time whenever the supposed one who would let them do such things isn't around?

Either Lucas is a bad writer and we need to discount certain things, or even though he's a bad writer the scripts are still cannon.

I didn't say the virgin Mary bit didn't happen, I just said it dumb as hell. Which it is.

in the real world, this takes place in a world where special people can use a magical force to make them storngerfaster, etc.

Tell Vader that when he's getting pounded on. You're talking about an old man who hasn't had a decent fight in decades that suddenly has to challenge another very strong Jedi.

also, vader was mostly mechanical, so health and age as we know it woudl have been irrelivant, as his body would not have aged like ours would have,.

Yeah, and it was clearly helping him move around like a ninja so well. He couldn't breathe right, his body was decrepit, and he had a range of movement that Grandpa Simpson would laugh at. Not exactly top-notch fighting physical prowess.

[Captain Vegetable]

I didn't say the virgin Mary bit didn't happen, I just said it dumb as hell. Which it is.

Well then, I must have misunderstood.

[Drewbacca]

Or to show a crapload of backstory for arguably the main character of this arc, Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wans role was to lead Anakin in to the darkside. Only Quigon could have saved Anakin after his mothers death, and he's dead. He was the only one who believed in Anakin.

In short: It had all of nothing to do with Quigon.

You're wrong. Vadar was on the dark side right up until Palpatine was threatening to kill his son, who he loved. That's why he killed Palpatine. Not because he thought it was 'right'. It was because he was killing his son.

There's this little character you're forgetting named Palpatine who would've used his power to turn Anakin no matter what happened to Quigon. Really, Quigon was nothing in the scheme of things.

Palpatine took advantage of a lost and angry Anakin. The whole line Yoda says about anger leading to blah, and blah leading to blah was about this. Anakin looked up to Quigon. Once he was gone Palpatine was free to swoop in and offer him a false hope in the form of the Darkside, which he took because he had nothing else.

I'm guessing you're trying to use sarcasm here, even though that sentence isn't written right for whichever "first one" you're referring to. In any case, it doesn't matter whether or not they were ruling, as those who knew Vader knew to fear him and those who knew Maul knew to whoop his ass.

No, my point was that Vadar was feared more because he was in power at a time when the Empire ruled the galaxy. Darth Maul was in power at a time where common man and good were stronghandling the galaxy and the Empire had not yet come to fruition.

I meant people as in characters in the movie.

People cared. I mean, Lucas wrote him to be in the shadow the whole time, which was stupid. But when he showed his face the Jedi immediatly went after him because he was a threat. The title of Darth is a title a select 2 can have. It signifies evil and corruption. They fear that.

When Vadar was gaining power he had the Empire to assist him. He was no more a master fighter than Maul was. Maul was even better than Vadar in this area. The double lightsaber is harder than the regular lightsaber to weild.

[frostwolf ex]

Tell Vader that when he's getting pounded on. You're talking about an old man who hasn't had a decent fight in decades that suddenly has to challenge another very strong Jedi.Yeah, and it was clearly helping him move around like a ninja so well. He couldn't breathe right, his body was decrepit, and he had a range of movement that Grandpa Simpson would laugh at. Not exactly top-notch fighting physical prowess.

he wa sdoing pretty well wehn he cut off luke's hand, and again, i return to the old thing, his organic bits were old, the machine was the machine. sheesh,is it that hard for you to admit that it would be asanine to have luke get the ultimate victory because he flipped out, it makes no sense within the larger context of the story. Luke won because his rage allowed him to tap into the dark side, which he had to renounce when he refused to kill vader. keep in mind it took vader a while to get into position to get pounded on in the first place, and his movement i blame more on a lesser importance placed on fight choreography than his physical weakness, now everyone in action films has to have some added flashy tricks, it was not as big back when rotj came out, unles youw ant to make the case that conan the barbarian was an old cyborg too, since they both moved about as badly. But i see no evidence before that that vader had a decrepit body, his breathing was loud, but i do not recall it ever being mentioned as a hinderance to him.

[MechDeus]

You're wrong. Vadar was on the dark side right up until Palpatine was threatening to kill his son, who he loved. That's why he killed Palpatine. Not because he thought it was 'right'. It was because he was killing his son.

1.) You're agreeing with me.
2.) That has nothing to do with the part you quoted.

Once he was gone Palpatine was free to swoop in and offer him a false hope in the form of the Darkside, which he took because he had nothing else.

And you honestly think Palpatine wouldn't have tried to sway who was quite possibly the most powerful Jedi to ever hit their ranks if Quigon was alive?

No, my point was that Vadar was feared more because he was in power at a time when the Empire ruled the galaxy. Darth Maul was in power at a time where common man and good were stronghandling the galaxy and the Empire had not yet come to fruition.

Um, most of the people scared of Vader was the Empire. What I'm saying is that there were a lot of people who knew Vader and there were only a couple people who were neutral or didn't think he was a threat, whereas only a handful of people knew of Maul and none of them were scared of him. A lot > none.

But when he showed his face the Jedi immediatly went after him because he was a threat.

Mostly because they were only ones would could fight him. The regular soldiers could fight droids just fine but they wouldn't have been able to take down Maul, it was more of lack of options then anything else.

sheesh,is it that hard for you to admit that it would be asanine to have luke get the ultimate victory because he flipped out, it makes no sense within the larger context of the story.

Letting your rage control you is part of the path to the dark side. I'm not saying Luke falling to the dark side wasn't the entire point of that fight (which in all truth was purely mental), but him beating down Vader was a physical battle. Yes, they do have Force powers, but neither of them were using such at the time.

and his movement i blame more on a lesser importance placed on fight choreography than his physical weakness, now everyone in action films has to have some added flashy tricks, it was not as big back when rotj came out, unles youw ant to make the case that conan the barbarian was an old cyborg too, since they both moved about as badly.

But i see no evidence before that that vader had a decrepit body, his breathing was loud, but i do not recall it ever being mentioned as a hinderance to him.

Take a look at his face and consider he's like 40-50 years old at that point even though he looks closer to 80. He's got a breathing harness and requires a machine to amplify his voice enough for other people to hear him, odds are whatever destroyed his ability to talk (in his neck) and ability to breath properly (anywhere from his neck down to his chest) didn't leave his body in a happy state. So he's missing a hand, has at least one major crippling wound, his skin is withered, and has trouble walking after taking a brief shot of Force Electricity while Luke took like five times the amount and could still practically carry Vader out of the Death Star.

His body is obviously not in good condition, I'm seriously at a loss to why you would argue otherwise. Before Episode I came out Lucas commented on how we hadn't really seen a lightsaber battle yet since all we've had is a kid who didn't really know what he was doing and an old guy past his prime.