The Passion of the Christ

[frostwolf ex]

The Vatican II reforms made this distinction, and Mel Gibson and his father Hutton are a part of an "order" that denounce the Vatican II reforms of the modern Catholic church. Therefore by default they believe all Jews should burden the guilt of the Christ's death, simply because they are the decendent's of some "narrow minded" people.

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yeah,the problem with the "default theory is that he already talked repetedly abotu this on television, that he is not anti semetic,and does not hold them responsable. It would only be resonable to assume this default if the second vatican only was about the placing the blame on the jews of the cruscifiction, vatican 2 was a fairly radical change in the church, i see no reason to say that since an individual opposes a reform that we should assume that he opposes each specific aspect of said reform.

aS for my own 2 cents the jews and romans were the ones there at the time, but its entirelymissing the point of the crucifiction to hold it agaisnt them, christians are taught that jesus died for our sins,and as such every one of us put jesus to death, the actual people doing it were only a proxy for ourselves, who are just as culpable,and i think this distinction is needed for sleeve,who is saying not much of anythign but potshots, nobody who sees this movie is goign to suddenly be magically turned into an anti-semite, people who already hold these views may look to this movie, but its like saying since unbalanced people who play grand theft auto 3 may be incited to commit crimes, we shoudl censor gta 3, entertainment is not a babysitter and it shoudl not be treated as such, the fact that an extreme group will be incited to violence, beyond being unproveable, is not the responsability of the entertainment industry.

I do find it ironic that there are scads of movies that cast christians in unfavorable lights, but once a movie dares to cast jews in any light other than loveable, if slightly neurotic, geniuses, it will evidently end in pogroms. Bullshit, this is a different world than the dark ages,when passion playes led to violence, the worst this movie will lead to, for me, is a few games of smash bros after the movie. It is differnet culture than the dark ages,and what the anti-defamation groups are suggesting is base censorship, plain and simple, fuck those thought-nazis, plain and simple.

Also, anyone who thinks the crucifiction was bloodless probably thinks Jesus is the cream-skinned Andy Gibb image portrayed throughout most of the western world.

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Andy gibb????? thanks meany, im probably going to have to sit through about 2-3 sundays with "stayin' alive" going through head thanks to you.

Goooooooooooooo Crucades!

yeah, crusades too.
(yes i know, pot, kettle)

Anyway, Mel Gibson rejects Vatican II, therefore he's an antisemetic cunt and the Passion of the Christ is subversive. If you wan't to learn about Jesus, just go read the New Testament.

honeslty, while i agree with your last sentance whole heartedly, you seem to be takign one point and running it for more than it really is worth, vatican2/ just= jews nto responsable for death of christ. It changed many fundamental aspects of the mass, many traditionalists disagree with, unless you have actual quotes where he says jews are responsable for the death of christ, i think you are taking the point out of context. conisder, vatican 2 is exclusive to catholics, so do all protestants hold jews solely responsable for the death of christ? reflect on this, your heart is in the right place, but you are taking a point for more than it is worth.

[Captain Vegetable]

This movie will do for Christianity what John Travolta's Battlefield Earth did for Scientology.

I predict big things!

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I found this line genuinely funny. Well placed, sleeve.

[sleeve]

Of course, cause we Christians are just a bunch of anti-Semitic bigots lying in wait for something like this to motivate us to come out and lynch you!! Watch your back and be very, very afraid... Christ killer! Hmph!

Did I say all Christians are anti-Semitic bigots? No.

I'm merely saying that Mel Gibson is at best a complete idiot and at worst a bigot for making this film. And I'm shocked that people aren't recognizing this film for what it is: an old-fashioned "blame-the-Jews" Passion play, the kind that helped perpetuate anti-Semitic violence and the blood libel.

He didn't have to make Pilate a sympathetic character, he didn't have to lay all the blame on Caiaphas, he didn't have to suggest that Pilate was pressured into killing Jesus by the Jews, he could have just made a neutral film about the Passion, but that's not what he did. So he can, you know, eat a dick.

And, holding the son accountable for the sins of the father are we? Is Arnold a Nazi Socialist?? Cause, ya know, his father was one...

I don't know what Mel believes, but his father is a balls-out racist, Holocaust-denying fuckwit.

Anyway, I have to say, the moral compass lately is pretty interesting. I didn't see the ADL go after Arafat, or come out and condemn movies like Kill Bill, Texas Chainsaw massacre where we celebrate the gore and view heads getting chopped off and guys with chainsaws chopping up chicks... Then you had a kid that recently killed his parents with a shotgun and claimed The Matrix motiviated him to do it... Perhaps we should've stopped that from hitting the theatres...

I guess I was in the bathroom when O-Ren Ishii blamed the Jews for killing Christ.

[Captain Vegetable]

Outside of of that, however, I agree 100% with frostwolf . . . even though he is a Catholic.

I'll be seeing the movie on day one. Matter of fact, I took a trip to the theater last week with my wife, under the impression it had released last Friday. Needless to say, I was greatly disappointed.

[frostwolf ex]

I don't know what Mel believes, but his father is a balls-out racist, Holocaust-denying fuckwit.



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well, you coudl always listen to the interview where he specifically and outright says what his feelings are on the subject, you know, actually getting information before flying off on a tirade, thats always cool. and isnt blaming him for the actions of his father a little bit ironic in the context of the thread?

Outside of of that, however, I agree 100% with frostwolf . . . even though he is a Catholic.

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arr, Catholic i be, pass me a fish, aaarrr!! We love em' arr

[sleeve]

well, you coudl always listen to the interview where he specifically and outright says what his feelings are on the subject, you know, actually getting information before flying off on a tirade, thats always cool. and isnt blaming him for the actions of his father a little bit ironic in the context of the thread?

Which one? The one where he says he wanted Frank Rich's "intestines on a stick," and "kill [Rich's] dog"? A different one, perhaps?

And for the second time, I never "blamed him for the action of his father", I just called his father a Nazi, a bigot and a fuckwit, which I think we can all agree he is.

[bbobb]

I personally think that the critisicm about Gibson making the movie to make the Jews look bad is bullshit because the Jews and Romans were the ones who killed Christ.

According to the bible they were... I don't think I've ever seen any REAL documented evidence of that though.

[frostwolf ex]

And for the second time, I never "blamed him for the action of his father", I just called his father a Nazi, a bigot and a fuckwit, which I think we can all agree he is.

yes, but then you jump to him, its hard not to get the inference. and furthermore, i am aware you are jewish,and as such,probably havent read the new testament much, but check out the pilate scene with a friend's copy, there really is no way to put the blame on him,he asks the crowd what jesus does wrong, he offers the crowd the chance to free jesus, they choose barabbas, he then washes his hands of the whole affair, at best, if you ignore the situation entirely, you can say he was cowardly, but culpable? check it out, it would be a greater streach to play it the way you make it out to be, Neutral, as you say. the only way to do it would be to neuter the scene, to take any feeling or context out of it for fear of offending people, is that what you really want movies to be? gutless inoffensive trifles that ignore their source for the sake of political correcteness? As i said, the jews are not responsable, the basic tenet of christian faith is that we each crucify him everyday when we sin, but to ignore the historical context, that the romans and jews were the ones who were physically there, would be just fantasy. why not throw in hobbits while we are at it?

[Misfit]

or when NEA presented Virgin Mary in a portrait made of dung and a crucifix in urine, designed to deliberately offend Christians (with their tax dollars), that says something... Aside from free expression is ok when you make movies or art that offends Christians.

The artist (who's name excapes me) made the portrait of Mary in dung because in the country he's from , the dung of that particular animal is considered holy. He wasn't being sacriligous , he was affirming his faith.

But all people hear is "Madonna made of shit" and get pissed.

[Captain Vegetable]

According to the bible they were... I don't think I've ever seen any REAL documented evidence of that though.

Then you've never looked. The Manefesto Josephi, by Josephus the historian, would be an excellent place to start. You can follow that up with Piney (sp?) the Younger's historical accounts as well.