Metroid Prime 2: Echoes - Official Thread

[SpoDaddy]

which is something I've been saying for a long long time

and why I think the rush to new hardware is a waste

developers need to learn how to really use the hardware that's out there now, I don't think any dev has really taken the Xbox or GC to it's limits yet

plus Retro knows that Textures are more important than polys when making 3D images, something very few other devs seemed to have learned yet

I agree completely. I think KBuchanan's point is that the GameCube hardware is superior to Xbox when it comes to textures and passes. GameCube really does give Xbox a run for it's money with games designed specifically for it, like RE4 and the Prime games. The thing with Xbox is that it's a PC essentially, it doesn't have the same sort of quirks that console hardware does. I think that makes it easier to make an Xbox game look good, but I also think when all is said and done the best looking Cube game will blow away the best looking Xbox game. Especially considering the fact that MS is already ditching Xbox for Xbox2, which I think is insane.

It drives me insane that third party games have to look shitty on Xbox and Cube because they were designed around the PS2 hardware as the lowest common demoninator, but we don't need a new generation of hardware yet. GameCube and Xbox games are still holding their own against arcade and PC games, I think MS is on the verge of pissing away the fanbase they've spent so much money to harvest.

When all is said and done some of the most magical games come out of systems at the end of their lives, it's really lame when a console's lifespan is cut short. For me 5 years is the minimum.

[dyomides]

So I also finally got the light armor and I am now searching for the nine keys. I believe I found 4 of them so far. Here's a quick tip for anyone at that stage


Using the dark visor in the light world you can search for the invisible vessels that carry the nine keys. if they are in a room you will see an outline of it in the light world. Then all you have to do is search for a portal and make your back there in the dark world and you will see the creature in the exact same spot in the dark world.

Sine the clues are more cryptic then they were in the first prime it helps a lot to just search for them in the light world rather than having to hop back and forth all the time.


D

[Bojack]

Just so every one knows, the music in Torvus Bog's lower water area is more Brinstar music than Maridia music, while it is true that Maridia did have that music in a part of it, it was a MUCH smaller percentage of of Maridia than Brinstar.

Just thought I should clear that up. [/Metroid Geek]

Just got Gravity Boost last night and found the subsequent Boss exceptionally easy. Dissappointingly easy actually but hey that's just me. Dash boost boss did rape me for a while so odds are bigger better badder bosses are in store.

[Diff-chan]

developers need to learn how to really use the hardware that's out there now, I don't think any dev has really taken the Xbox or GC to it's limits yet

This is a nice idea but not functional. There's a few problems:

01. Exactly when do developers say, "okay, we've learned it, no more we can do"? All "limits" of hardware is theoretical, and you can always get an extra 1% or 2% if you really try hard. So for how long should developers really try?

02. When developers are finally done with one system, how will they move on to another if its not at least in the planning stages? Like when developers say, "no more we can do", something has to be ready to go. So people have to be working on new hardware.

03. In the past, we've seen hardware hit these amazing graphical heights really quickly, but then not much more gets done past that. Think of PlayStation - in 1998, Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo both came out. Technically, far superior to anything else before it. But after that... eh not much more came out that looked better. Looking back, its easy to see that the PSX was pretty much tapped by the end of 1998. Of course, though, we looked at MGS and GT and said "woah if these guys could do that, theres probably TONS more power left". Which there wasnt. So it happens really suddenly, and we can only see that point in retrospect. So what Im saying is, that its entirely conceivable that games like Metroid Prime 2 and Conker's Bad Fur Day are indeed the reasonable "limits" of the hardware.

I mean, basically what you're saying is that you wish hardware would stick around so developers can be forced to make better and better looking games. But how long do they stick around? When do we know they hit their limit? We dont, which is why we need new hardware to be coming down the pipe.

[Shin Johnpv]

except the average developer right now isn't using multiple textures per pass to their fullest which the GC and Xbox have no problem doing in hardware, in that sense these systems havent hit their limit

3d is all about the textures, the games that look the best don't have to push the most poly's they have the best texture work

which is something the GC and Xbox have no problem doing and very few developers are taking advantage of that

what I'm saying is I wish Develoeprs would take advantage of the texturing capabilities built into the Xbox and GC hardware to make nice looking games

If most developers arent taking advantage of using 6 - 8 textures per pass, why rush to give them 12 - 16 to work with

very few games are taking advantage of the raw mapping abilities of both systems that have been there since day one

[AaronChance]

Actually, in recent games I think developers have gotten much better at textures. Look at games like Halo 2 and Otogi 2. What these and others still lack is better lighting models, but I think really good ones would be too processor intensive for the current consoles. So really have hit their limit, or come fairly close to it.

[Rocca]

Ehh, what's with all these threads getting derailed? Not pointing fingers to anyone but...

Just finished playing for the night. Got the Light Suit and it's fricking cool. I'm all set to go find the 9 remaining keys across the Dark World. I forgot how much more interesting Metroid games are when you have all the power ups and can just start exploring. Aaah. =D

[EightBit]

This is a nice idea but not functional. There's a few problems:

01. Exactly when do developers say, "okay, we've learned it, no more we can do"? All "limits" of hardware is theoretical, and you can always get an extra 1% or 2% if you really try hard. So for how long should developers really try?

02. When developers are finally done with one system, how will they move on to another if its not at least in the planning stages? Like when developers say, "no more we can do", something has to be ready to go. So people have to be working on new hardware.

03. In the past, we've seen hardware hit these amazing graphical heights really quickly, but then not much more gets done past that. Think of PlayStation - in 1998, Metal Gear Solid and Gran Turismo both came out. Technically, far superior to anything else before it. But after that... eh not much more came out that looked better. Looking back, its easy to see that the PSX was pretty much tapped by the end of 1998. Of course, though, we looked at MGS and GT and said "woah if these guys could do that, theres probably TONS more power left". Which there wasnt. So it happens really suddenly, and we can only see that point in retrospect. So what Im saying is, that its entirely conceivable that games like Metroid Prime 2 and Conker's Bad Fur Day are indeed the reasonable "limits" of the hardware.

I mean, basically what you're saying is that you wish hardware would stick around so developers can be forced to make better and better looking games. But how long do they stick around? When do we know they hit their limit? We dont, which is why we need new hardware to be coming down the pipe.

I think people are just saying its sad to see a system go before its potential has been reached. I dont think anyone wants to beat the horse after a point of diminishing returns, but five years is too short a time to realise the systems limits. Thats how I feel anyway.

I do agree with your points though, we always need new hardware. And people are kind of doing some chicken little impersonations. I mean, the Xbox will probably have games for it untill late 06, and the cube untill sometime in 2007. Excluding some company that wants to throw a ton of money into R&D for graphic engines for these systems, Im sure we'll get real close to thier limits.

Moving on...

But then it doesnt really matter does it? I mean, you can throw a ton of poly's at something, texture it like there's no tomorrow, but in the end it comes down to the ability of the artist. A high poly model with asstastic art will still look like crap. Its not only subjective to personal taste, but also to the ability of the artist.

But on with the game. Ive gotten up to the spiderball boss, and I hate him. With fervant passion. Its not that he is terrubly difficult, but because of the way its set up, I couldnt see certain aspect of the level that I needed to. So i spend hours on one section, trying to figure out how Im supposed to do it. I havent had the heart to go back to it after I figured it out. Since I was so low on health, I could finish the battle with him, so I commited suicide. I then realised how far back I saved and just kinda feel blah about going back through those areas. Still though, Im loving it way more than when I first started playing it.

[dyomides]

You do realized that during that fight hitting the X button will pull the camera back to give you a full view of the area you are in so you can figure out what you have to do?

Try it, it makes that boss much easier.

D

[Diff-chan]

I dont think anyone wants to beat the horse after a point of diminishing returns, but five years is too short a time to realise the systems limits.

Honestly, its really not. The PlayStation came out in Japan in 1994 and hit its peak in 1998. I really doubt we'll see games that look so much better than Conker BFD or Metroid Prime 2 (that Zelda surely doesnt). And thats only 3-3.5 years.

Plus, I mean, look at what Betheseda is doing with the new Elder Scrolls. That game alone should tell you that developers are ready for new hardware.