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Thread: 200 Russian Schoolchildren Taken Hostage

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    However, a significant portion of Muslims support terror, a significant enough portion that you'd be blind to not make some connection between their religion and terrorism. That's all.
    I don't make that connection. I look at it this way: terrorists are terribly flawed in some mental aspect. The Chechnan rebels are essentially STILL pissed off about what Stalin did, which is absolutely bonkers. Holding a grudge for that long is indicative of improper upbringing, but who is responsible for the improper upbringing? Certainly not Muslims, Jews, Christians, or whatever. The people live in a backward society and need to be brought forward. And that needs to happen not for "our security," since security is an illusion, but for their greater good. If you're looking at it from the standpoint that you might get killed by a terrorist, that's a selfish reason. (Not to mention that you're deluding yourself.)

    Whoever first brought up Christians being evil = moron. It's not the religion, it's the effed up people who consider themselves a part of that religion.
    Last edited by Mike; 04 Sep 2004 at 03:16 PM.

  2. Well, the Chechens are pissed off about a lot more than what Stalin did, but, yeah, they've got long memories. A lot of arabs are still pissed off about losing Spain 600 years ago.

    Mike, a religion is nothing more than its followers - if a significant portion of a religion's devout followers are "effed up people", then that becomes a problem for the religion itself. Their religion enables them.

    You know how people say "guns don't kill people, people kill people" - how about "Islam doesn't kill people, terrorists kill people". There's nothing wrong with guns or Islam if it's used properly.

    Does that mean gun control is unnecessary? No. At some point, simply implicating the individual is not enough to keep society safe - you have to move past that to understand what outside factor enabled that person to harm others, and then attack that issue.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Well, the Chechens are pissed off about a lot more than what Stalin did, but, yeah, they've got long memories. A lot of arabs are still pissed off about losing Spain 600 years ago.
    Fools.

    Mike, a religion is nothing more than its followers - if a significant portion of a religion's devout followers are "effed up people", then that becomes a problem for the religion itself. Their religion enables them.
    I'm not religious or spiritual, so I guess that I wouldn't understand. However, from my viewpoint, it's like those DVDs where they show you that message about the "views and opinions presented on this disc" not being representative of Paramount or whomever.

    You know how people say "guns don't kill people, people kill people" - how about "Islam doesn't kill people, terrorists kill people". There's nothing wrong with guns or Islam if it's used properly. Does that mean gun control is unnecessary?
    I think gun control is an illusion, too. *queue "Twilight Zone" music*

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Yahoo
    Putin Vows Tough Response to 'All-Out War'

    2 hours, 50 minutes ago

    By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

    BESLAN, Russia - A shaken President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) made a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness Saturday in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists after more than 340 people — nearly half of them children — were killed in a hostage-taking at a southern school.

    Putin went on national television to tell Russians that they must mobilize against terrorism and promised wide-ranging reforms to toughen security forces and purge corruption.

    "We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said.

    Shocked relatives wandered among row after row of bodies lined up in black plastic or clear body bags on the pavement at a morgue in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia, where the dead from the school standoff in Baslan were taken. In some open bags lay the contorted, thin bodies of children, some monstrously charred.

    In Baslan, other relatives scoured lists of names to see if their loved ones had survived the chaos of the day before, when the standoff turned into violence, with militants setting off explosives in the school and commandos moving in to seize the building.

    Workers cleaned up the gymnasium where the more than 1,000 hostages were held during the 62-hour ordeal. The gym of School No. 1 was reduced to a shell — the roof destroyed, the windows shattered — during Friday's fighting.

    Regional Emergency Situations Minister Boris Dzgoyev said 323 people, including 156 children, were killed. More than 542 people including 336 children were hospitalized, medical officials said.

    Dzgoyev also said 35 attackers — heavily-armed and explosive-laden men and women who were reportedly demanding independence for Chechnya (news - web sites) — were killed in 10 hours of battles that shook the area around the school with gunfire and explosions after 1 p.m. Friday. Earlier, a senior prosecutor had said there were only 26 militants and all were killed. The discrepancy could not immediately be explained.

    Putin made a quick visit to the town before dawn Friday, meeting local officials and touring a hospital to speak with wounded. He stopped to stroke the head of one injured child.

    But some in the region were unimpressed, as grief turned to anger, both at the militants and at the government response.

    "Putin arrived and left in the middle of the night while everyone is sleeping, probably because he was afraid to talk with the people, to look them in the eyes," said Zalina Gutiyeva, 37, a pediatrician in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia, a Russian Orthodox region set amid the predominantly Muslim North Caucasus.

    It was still unclear how exactly the standoff fell apart into violence on Friday. Officials say security forces had not intended to storm the building but were forced to when hostage-takers set off explosives — some however questioned that version.

    The militants seized the school on the first day of classes on Wednesday, herding hundreds of children, parents who had been dropping their kids off, and other adults into the gymnasium, which the militants promptly wired with explosives — including bombs hanging from the basketball hoops. The packed gym became sweltering, and the hostage-takers refused to allow in food or water.

    One survivor, Sima Albegova, told the Kommersant newspaper she asked the militants, why the captives were taken. "Because you vote for your Putin," one of the militants told her, she said.

    Another freed hostages said a militant told her, "The federal forces killed our children and you didn't help us. If Putin doesn't withdraw forces from Chechnya and doesn't free our arrested brothers, we'll blow everything up," according to the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper.

    Russian officials said the bloodshed began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants — possibly by accident — as emergency workers entered the school courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed in the initial raid Wednesday.

    Diana Gadzhinova, a 14-year-old hostage, was quoted as telling Izvestia that the militants had ordered the hostages to lie face down in the gymnasium as workers approached to collect the bodies.

    "They told us that there were going to be talks," she said. Others also told stories of how the explosions sent the militants guarding them running in what appeared to be confusion and surprise to see what had happened.

    Hostages fled during the explosions, and the militants opened fire on them. Security forces opened fire in return, and commandos moved in, officials said.

    The explosions tore through the roof of the gymnasium, sending wreckage down on hostages, killing many. Many survivors emerged naked covered in ashes and soot, their feet bloody from jumping barefoot out of broken windows to escape.

    During his visit to Beslan, Putin stressed that security officials had not planned to storm the school — trying to fend off any potential criticism that the government side had provoked the bloodshed. He ordered the region's borders closed while officials searched for everyone connected with the attack.

    "What happened was a terrorist act that was inhuman and unprecedented in its cruelty," Putin said in his televised speech later. "It is a challenge not to the president, the parliament and the government but a challenge to all of Russia, to all of our people. It is an attack on our nation."

    Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. He said Russians could no longer live "carefree" and must all confront terrorism.

    He called for Russians to mobilize against what he said was the "common danger" of terrorism. Measures would be taken, Putin promised, to overhaul the law enforcement organs, which he acknowledged had been infected by corruption, and tighten borders.

    "We are obliged to create a much more effective security system and to demand action from our law enforcement organs that would be adequate to the level and scale of the new threats," he said.

    The school attack was the latest violence thought connected to Chechen separatists who have been battling Russian rule for more than a decade. IT came after a suicide bomb attack outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday that killed eight people, and last week's near-simultaneous crashes of two Russian jetliners after what officials believe were explosions on board.

    An unidentified intelligence official was quoted by the ITAR-Tass news agency as saying the school assault was financed by Abu Omar As-Seyf, an Arab who allegedly represents al-Qaida in Chechnya, and masterminded by Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev.

    With some families gathering for wakes for the dead, some were vowing vengeance in North Ossetia, a Russian Orthodox Christian region in the mainly Muslim North Caucasus.

    "Fathers will bury their children, and after 40 days (the Orthodox mourning period) ... they will take up weapons and seek revenge," said Alan Kargiyev, a 20-year-old university student in Vladikavkaz.
    Time for a change

  5. 156 killed, 300+ hospitalized. That's... So sad.

    We had a discussion in class about hostage situations and how America, among other countries, treat them differently. Some countries seem to care more about killing the terrorists than they do saving the innocent lives.

    This makes me think of that discussion quite a bit... Losing half the hostages is just downright sickening.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Nomi
    156 killed, 300+ hospitalized. That's... So sad.

    We had a discussion in class about hostage situations and how America, among other countries, treat them differently. Some countries seem to care more about killing the terrorists than they do saving the innocent lives.

    This makes me think of that discussion quite a bit... Losing half the hostages is just downright sickening.
    Especially when they're innocent children (and I hate children). Sickening, disheartening, and upsetting. The trifecta of bad feelings.

  7. Wow, I suppose this didn't turn out too good at all. The mental image of the whole thing going down is pretty unsettling, I think something bad is going to happen to Chechnya over this, the Russians don't deal with these things lightly.
    http://www.the-nextlevel.com/board/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1739&dateline=1225393453

  8. i can't fucking believe it came down like that - i understand it wasn't completely russia's police forces fault (according to all news reports, some kind of accident spurred the dumbfucker terrorists to open fire)...I just can't believe that all those kids died, they showed their parents on BBC before the final actions took place, still hoping they're kids would be released. What a shitty situation. Russia needs to start pounding those chechnian terrorists in the ass.
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  9. See that quote in Gozens post? After the mourning period (40 days) some shit may very well go down by the victims families hands.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Well, no. It does have something to do with Islam. These terrorists (this incident, and others) aren't irreligious, they do still believe they're Muslim, and they have been easily able to use their religion to justify these horrors. A religion is its people, and a people are their religion. When a significant portion of Islam's followers can believe in the rightness of massacring one hundred children, and when Islam's majority remains antiquated enough and brutal enough not to cast those followers from the religion, then it is Islam that is supporting and justifying terror. It's the religion.

    How did Jewish resistance fighters handle themselves against the Nazis in WWII? How did Indians handle themselves against Britain? You're "sigh"ing because there's no way to respond. How about "La resistance"?



    Palestine isn't remotely similar to what we're talking about.

    What percentage of the Catholic religion, worldwide, in 1994, supported the Hutu-massacres perpetrated by those Catholics? Virtually none. That's why that massacre tells us nothing about the Catholic religion. An individual using their religion to justify evil says nothing about the religion. A movement using their religion to justify evil, and then finding support in the arms of a significant number of others who follow the religion, says something else.

    And, yeah, guys, you're right. Islam is about 500 years backwards right now, and they are going through their own version of the Dark Ages. They will advance through it, eventually. It'd be nice if we could leave them alone, and give them a couple of centuries to figure things out, but we can't - we can't do so and keep secure our way of life. It sucks, but we're going to have to figure things out for them, in a sense, push them along the road to modernity.
    Thanks for proving my point right about this part:What percentage of the Catholic religion, worldwide, in 1994, supported the Hutu-massacres perpetrated by those Catholics? Virtually none. That's why that massacre tells us nothing about the Catholic religion.

    What percentage of the Muslim population worldwide supported the slaughter of innocent at 9/11 or now in Chechnya?

    And at this point: A religion is its people, and a people are their religion. When a significant portion of Islam's followers can believe in the rightness of massacring one hundred children,

    I could of course say When a significant portion of Jews can believe in the righteousnes of massacring hunderds of children(more now then Palestine terrorist actions (notice how I DONT call them freedom fighters or whatever, unlike you who defendet Armenian terrorists in previous threads and blasted me for calling people who killed hunderds of innocent people to make a political point terrorists) have claimed Israeli lives).
    But I wont do that, im not as stupid as you are and unlike you I can draw a distinction between legit taking up of arms and cold blooded taking of innocent life.
    There is of course the fact that a significant portions of Israeli Jews(mostly settlers and the Zionists abroad) support eradication or transfer of the Palestine people in the west bank and Gaza strip becouse hey its their land that God gave em.
    We are NOT talking about a few fringe groups here either.

    Then there is this:How did Jewish resistance fighters handle themselves against the Nazis in WWII?
    By threatening afterwards to poison the water in German cities and make 6 million German casualties unless they got their land in the middle east?
    I dunno if that is true, maybe you can enlighten me on this subject, im too lazy to do a search right now.


    Ah screw this ill end it here.
    Dont have the time right now, maybe later.

    Quote Originally Posted by g0zen
    It's not Christians that I think are evil, just the people who use Christanity for thier evil purposes. Thats all.
    Same with Jews, same with Muslims, that was the entire point of my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by diffusionx
    Yet, when Muslims use Islam for their evil purposes today, in 2004, its okay, because they are "in the Dark Ages" and they havent killed as many as Christians did in the past, right? Thats what you are saying now.

    Stop with the idiotic moral equivalency already and look at the facts. How many people, today, are using Christianity for their evil purposes? And when those people do use it, how often are they supported by the Christian community at large? Pretty much, umm... never.

    People mostly stopped using Christianity for their evil purposes hundreds of years ago. Its ridiculous to give Muslims who are taking children captive, beheading innocent civilians in the name of Allah on videotape, and blowing up buses full of women and children today a pass because Christians were using the Bible in the Crusades of 1095 and whatever else. I dont even know how we got to that point, but its horrible and counter-productive.
    Way to twist words and miss the point.
    A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.
    Get it now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Absolutely, everyone needs to understand that not all Muslims are terrorists. There are some moderate Muslim nations that are basically civilized, upstanding countries.

    However, a significant portion of Muslims support terror, a significant enough portion that you'd be blind to not make some connection between their religion and terrorism. That's all.

    So does that make Israel a terrorist nation then?
    I mean Israeli organisations funded and placed bombs at a Palestine elementary school, almost a third of Israel supports seizing what lil is left of Palestine at any means, terrorist actions have been conducted by Israeli΄s and Jews the last 2 years in France, the US, Germany and Belgium amongst others, Israel has a policy of assasination, abduction and torture etcetera etcetera.

    Again, if we take YOUR line of thinking on what makes Muslims and Muslim countries somehow more terrorist then non muslim countries and regions shouldnt we then also include Israel and Jews in the list of countries/people who live in the dark ages?

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