Games now are better than ever

[Tsubaki]

Tsubaki, why do you equate cut scenes with immersiveness? The two are mutually exclusive, for the most part.

Alright, you got me here.

What I meant to say is that immersiveness, or the experience aspect, is often counter to the gameplay aspect. It isn't always. You gave the example of Half-Life, which doesn't sacrifice anything for its immersiveness.

But the problem I have with modern gaming is that many games DO use the immersiveness and experience as a substitute for gameplay. And whether I like it or not, many people gobble these games up. But I'm just saying that this is not how games always were. And one shouldn't be surprised if some people, like me, oppose it.

And also, why did you spend so much time playing a junk game like Sonic Adventure 2?

And why do you continue to ask? I just told you that you would hate SA2, and why you would, just as I've told you that I like SA2, and why I do. If you can't look beyond the game itself and think about what it is about the game that causes people to like or hate it, then why are we having this discussion?

Our likes and dislikes aren't manipulated by game developers. We like and dislike games based on how well they fulfill what we've always desired. Simple as that.

[MarkRyan]

Please stop. This is as stupid as saying Led Zeplin is only good if you're a hardcore music listner. Andy Worhal (I don't know how to spell his name) is only apealing art if you really dig art man, yea! I liked the rest of your ideas, but I hate it when people think that certain things are only enjoyed by a hardened gamer.

I was referring to any gamer that doesn't see graphics/technology as the purpose of video games. Which could be someone like your or me, or my eight-year-old cousin.

[sethsez]

Videogames have advanced so much, and gotten so much better, in the past 5 or 6 years that they really have made the vast majority of old-school titles look silly and obsolete.

But the classics that do stand the test of time are just as fun as ever, and games that were mediocre way back when are shit now. Obviously, this is going to happen to the current generation as well... in ten years, Second Sight is going to be just as worthless as the Bubsy games.

In that sense, I wouldn't say gaming is getting better. The ratio of mediocrity to classics is about the same, but modern mediocre games are more appealing than old mediocre games because they're a closer match to the general gaming atmosphere today. However, I'd argue that they have just as much shelf life as any of the crappy SNES games had, and once there's another shift in the general public's gaming preferences, today's classics will stick around and the crap will sink, just like it always has.

It's the same with movies. For every classic, you have countless movies that might have entertained at the time but are hopelessly dated now. This doesn't mean that movies have gotten better, it just means that time has seperated the good from the bad, and what was once considered a decent way to spend an afternoon (a movie that, in 1960, might have been considered three stars our of five) is now hopelessly bad and not worth the time. But the true classics are always good.

[Joust Williams]

Yep, I was super immersed when I got shot in HL and a red trapezoid showed up signifying where I got hit.

I was super immersed in SC when I had a bunch of lights on my head and yet no one could see them. Oh and when I had to use a menu to decide what I wanted to do with an object I was looking at

I was super immersed in GTA when I had to hit a button to aim at a guy so his body would be encapsulated in a red targeting reticle.

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

I play games because they're FUN. And they haven't gotten more fun than yesteryear.

[Tsubaki]

Also, James, it's good to see another person enjoy Sonic 1 for its exploration, which pretty much every succeeding Sonic game lacks

Veering off-topic for a sec, but yes, that's exactly why I think Sonic the Hedgehog is the best in the series.

As much flack Sonic gets for being all about speed, not all Sonic games are about "racing". Sonic the Hedgehog isn't. Sonic Advance isn't. And as much as the general public regards Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic Advance 2 as much better games, I really can't agree. I don't have a positive opinion of either game, but Sonic the Hedgehog and Sonic Advance are two of the best platformers I've ever played.

[Diff-chan]

Yep, I was super immersed when I got shot in HL and a red trapezoid showed up signifying where I got hit.

I was super immersed in SC when I had a bunch of lights on my head and yet no one could see them. Oh and when I had to use a menu to decide what I wanted to do with an object I was looking at

I was super immersed in GTA when I had to hit a button to aim at a guy so his body would be encapsulated in a red targeting reticle.

Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

I play games because they're FUN. And they haven't gotten more fun than yesteryear.

I was really immersed when I was playing Atari 2600, and I had to move that blip from one side of the screen to another. That was so rad.

[Dipstick]

Alright, you got me here.

What I meant to say is that immersiveness, or the experience aspect, is often counter to the gameplay aspect. It isn't always. You gave the example of Half-Life, which doesn't sacrifice anything for its immersiveness.

But the problem I have with modern gaming is that many games DO use the immersiveness and experience as a substitute for gameplay. And whether I like it or not, many people gobble these games up. But I'm just saying that this is not how games always were. And one shouldn't be surprised if some people, like me, oppose it.

I would argue that such "false immersiveness" really detracts from the experience of a game. I despise cutscenes in games; it usually means that control is taken away from me for an indeterminate time, and that the character I am controlling (instead of me) does something that usually looks cool -- so what can I not do it instead?

That is what I think was so cool about games like System Shock and Deus Ex -- they almost never broke away from the game to give you tidbit X about the backstory. You either heard it from an NPC (usually while something else is going on), or you read it from some of the journals laying around -- much as one would in real life.

Yep, I was super immersed when I got shot in HL and a red trapezoid showed up signifying where I got hit.

I was super immersed in SC when I had a bunch of lights on my head and yet no one could see them. Oh and when I had to use a menu to decide what I wanted to do with an object I was looking at

I was super immersed in GTA when I had to hit a button to aim at a guy so his body would be encapsulated in a red targeting reticle.

At the same time, did it break you out of the game? I doubt it. Games are not immersive because they are realistic, games are immersive because they are engrossing.

Those silly looking UI contraptions are abstractions. They are required because games lack the input/output necessary to notify the player via other means. Sure you do not get a trapazoid flashing in your sights when you get shot in the side, but you get this searing, painful sensation in your side instead. Would you rather have no indication that you are getting shot until you die? I doubt it.

-Dippy

[Clash!]

Yeah but people back then used their imaginations more when playing those games so they could get more imerssed. Same way people had to visualise what was going on with D&D or something, or reading a book. Sure adventure was as simplistic as it gets, but it was intended that you were visualising a much grander adventure.

[remnant]

the best hand-held game (pokemon) is almost 16-bit. Your one of those gamers that play not becuse their good but becuase the graphics have gotten better. thats the only thing that has changed greatly over the years.

you suck ass old school games rule! they are the fondation of todays games. Withouth them we'd be no where

[Diff-chan]

Talking about the best handheld games is like talking about the poop that smells the least.

you suck ass

Hey mods, looks like a flame to me. Better crack down. =O