Would you like to know the benefits of being a Christian?

[arjue]

no, red wine hangovers are notoriously bad. Apparently though, the better the wine, the nicer the hangover.

and I have next to no knowledge on wine, I've only started drinking it very recently (I got all that shit I said off the bottle infront of me LOL).

[AstroBlue]

Sethsez: The argument isn't "God Did It" vs. "I don't understand"... There are many things about the Bible/God that I'll readily admit I don't understand. In fact, there are several things that God specifically doesn't tell us. And I'll be honest, I don't know why he does them. The argument is for intelligent design vs. random chance happening. Moreover, when I speak of evolution, I'm speaking about the religion of evolution. Like it or not, evolution in the broad sense (Macroevolution), is a religion. Microevolution is certainly scientifically valid, and a large amount of solid scientific data backs up microevolution. It's macroevolution that has no scientific bearing. Where are the transitional forms? Why doesn't human genetic code go back millions of years? Current scientific data puts it at around 6,500 years, and our genetic material has shown large evidence for coming from one man and one woman. As you said, genetics can be and have been altered for commercial benefit... however, these benefits have not been without consequences, like bigger, tougher strawberries that lose natural sweetness. Moreover, this manipulation is again a show of microevolution... farmers have not yet turned a carrot into an apple... and they've certainly not turned an apple into a mammal. Lastly it's taken a being with intelligence to affect life... if evolution was a natural, unaided process, why has it not simulated itself? Why do we need to simulate macroevolution, if macroevolution needs no simulation?

LAWL

For fucks sake you said before that "love" has an evolutionary negative effect? Do you need me to draw a picture? It will involve people "in love", and penises entering vaginas. Everything you have said is at best "bullshit" and at worst "bullshit".

[AstroBlue]

Okay, since I think TNL is slowly turning me to an arsehole, I'll give explanations to my diffx imitation.

BTW I <3 diffx

The argument is for intelligent design vs. random chance happening.

Ok, evolution is not random, it is based on "natural selection", the only random thing in evolution is the collosal amount of mutations which provide the diversity that is selected.

Imagine you have a jar filled with M&Ms and walnuts, you keep shaking this jar erratically for about one day straight, eventually you will have a jar where most of the M&Ms are at the bottom of the jar and the walnuts will be resting on the top. The random shaking (mutations) facilitate the deterministic sorting (natural selection = evolution).

Mutations are EXTREMELY COMMON like the many little shakes which sorted the nuts.

Once at a Creationist conference the head dickhead "disproved" evolution by pointing out that some molecule in haemoglobin requires something like 36 nucleotides and there are four different nucleotides. So he said the probablity of that molcule would be 1 in 4 to the power of 36, which is a FUCKING big number so evolution is improbable.

That day I understood that not only do creationist understand fuck all about the natural world, they suck at maths too.

Moreover, when I speak of evolution, I'm speaking about the religion of evolution. Like it or not, evolution in the broad sense (Macroevolution), is a religion.

It's a human belief system, but calling it a religion would be fucking English semantics in the arse.

Microevolution is certainly scientifically valid, and a large amount of solid scientific data backs up microevolution. It's macroevolution that has no scientific bearing.

Okay, so you believe in microevolution. Which is caused by mutations in DNA providing variety from which the most adapted forms can be selected to alter a species genetic pool; but you don't believe in macroevolution, which is caused by mutations in DNA providing variety from which the most adapted forms can be selected to alter the species genetic pool.

Would you like to explain a natural mechanism which would prevent lots of microevolutions to compound into macroeveolution? Because what you are essentially saying is that if you can take a step, but you can't layer step upon step upon step to walk a mile.

Where are the transitional forms?

Look in the mirror, you're a transitional form between your parents and your offspring. Every animal is a transitional form, but yeah, if you're looking for fossils of "shit half way between a hoofed mammal and a dolphin" yup, we've got it.

Why doesn't human genetic code go back millions of years?Current scientific data puts it at around 6,500 years, and our genetic material has shown large evidence for coming from one man and one woman.

What are you babbling on about? Are you talking about Mitochondrial Eve?

farmers have not yet turned a carrot into an apple... and they've certainly not turned an apple into a mammal.

Well, apart from a carrot being a root and apple being fruit (they're not really comparable parts of a plant)... I'll simplify it a bit and lets say an orange can't turn into a watermelon, the reason this can't happen is because according to evolution they both derived from a common fruit tree ancestor (a protofruit) and have since evolved individual traits.

The best way of explaining this is the dolphin, mammals evolved from a sea animal (like a fish) that eventually adapted to life on land with legs and lungs. Now, when the ancestor of the dolphin began living a semi-aquatic environment, it didn't evolve into a fish, the reason was that it had legs and lungs; when the common ancestor of mammals and fish did not. So, the through evolution the dolphin arranged it's mammalian respitory system to aquatic life (blowhole) and its front legs into flippers, tail into a fluke, and its hindlegs into little vestigal bones.

A good metaphor would be like getting two identical slabs of granite and telling the sculptor you want one statue of the male form and one of the female; and then after he finishes the sculptures, you telling him that you actually wanted two males statues. He won't be able to make two identical male statues because he's already modified the granite slab (women are smaller, and he's already chiselled away the granite reserved for a penis), so instead he must improvise and make do with the modified granite the female sculpture is made of.

I hope this helps.

[Kev]

LAWL

For fucks sake you said before that "love" has an evolutionary negative effect? Do you need me to draw a picture? It will involve people "in love", and penises entering vaginas. Everything you have said is at best "bullshit" and at worst "bullshit".

Yeah... I'm not talking about physical love ("Eros", also known as "intercourse", also known as "fucking"), I'm talking about a deep seated action/behavior ("Agape", as in "I'll take a bullet for you, bro"). As for everything I've said being 'bullshit', well, I've yet to trash any religion so far ("trashing" being "_______ism SUX lol ________ism eetz dik itz bullSHIT!!! fuk u ______ist koksmaX ~_~). I've stated that I'm Christian, and that I disagree with other religions/worldviews, but I do respect them. And I have yet to call anyone names, nor laugh at them.

I didn't expect to win any popularity points in saying that I'm saved by Christ... I'm not shocked at all that I've gotten the response I've gotten. However, we're autonomous. God gave you the free will to use... All I care to do is let whoever cares to hear (read?) that Jesus (Latin for Joshua) is incredible, and is the only for humanity to get to Heaven, to be with God. And that God does in fact care. If you really don't wanna be with God, hey, that's between you and Him. I'm not God, so that kinda takes judging people outta my hands... but I'd rather be with my Engineer rather than being tormented forever with shame and regret and anger for the choices I SHOULD'VE made....

I already deal with that shit on the daily here...

[AstroBlue]

Yeah... I'm not talking about physical love ("Eros", also known as "intercourse", also known as "fucking"), I'm talking about a deep seated action/behavior ("Agape", as in "I'll take a bullet for you, bro").

Well if you're talking about Platonic love, the evolutionary advantage is pretty obvious. If you're willing to "take a bullet" or "get your jugular slashed by a Sabretooth Tiger's canine" for the good of those you love (your tribe), you will help them survive (and with them, a close form of your genetic information). Love is very important for group dynamics, and group dynamics are very important when you're small ape-like dudes running around in a savannah where every turn there's shit that can kill you.

I was laughing at your beliefs on evolution, not your belief in God.

[Fe 26]

LAWL

It's not that bad; I liked certain bits of it.

Yeah, that part where god smited that city, and the one good guy ran out was pretty cool. His wife looked back and she turned to sand, so he went up to the hills, and his daughters got him drunk and banged him untill they got preggers.

man, the bible would make an awesome hentai.






yeah, im going to wake up in hell tomarrow.

Some Christians are pretty stupid, though. Some just don't even know what it is that they're worshiping. For example, apperantly Jesus was the son of God, as it states very clearly many times in the Bible. But you'd be surprised at how many people call Jesus "God".

Well that is because of the holy trinity. Jesus was the foot to the Holy Voltron, you see.

This is one thing protestants do that confuses me, protestants believe that all you have to do is believe in jesus and you are saved, so what about a gay guy that believes in jesus, by definition he beleives in jesus and therefore should be as saved as any hetero sinner that gets by. as a catholic we go by actions as well as faith, so i have always been confused by that with protestants. I will add that its odd you see all punishments as equal, how do you know? the largely allegorical descriptions of hell really dont tell us much, in fact the one term for hell, "gehenna" was a geographical region at the time, so the actual topography of a spiritual plane of punishment need not correspond exactly to allegories. you take the bible very literaly for an athiest nick.

Funny, I always thought Catholics were like that too. It really changes per protestant. Church christ people think you can lose your salvation by being sinful, while babtist, despite talking about hell all the time, think you are good to go the second you get out of the batism pool.

I've always found the difference in batisem to be funny too. Protostants do it as a right of passage of sorts, and it has no meaning if the person doesn't ask for it themselves. While the Catholics treat it like a holy healing pool in an rpg that if you do it to someone, they are saved. Fuck personal choise, you got dunked, you are saved. After that point you do not really sin, you just have flaws in your personal character. This shit is out of your Catechismthingwhatever.

Okay, since we clearly don't have any theologians on the board (or anybody who took a religion class in college), let me break it down. Not a jab at Rocca

Believers in the Judeo-Christian God would say that God = Good and is the antithesis of Evil.

Evil entered the world thru original sin (see: Adam/Eve). God, being nothing but Good (and the antithesis of Evil) cannot abide sin. (ADDED) In which case, it would go against God's nature to just say, "You know all that sin you humans keep doing? Forget it! It doesn't need to be atoned for. I'll just pretend it didn't happen."

God has, for whatever reason (God being the...um, being...that created everything, he pretty much has the right to do things the way he wants without owing humanity an explanation), set up the world like this: Sin will have its time but one day God will fix it all.

This argument, of "Why doesn't God make everything perfect?" does not compute with the Judeo-Christian God. God isn't out to make everything perfect. God is out to fix things in the way God wants to when God wants to (and mortal man cannot hope to comprehend why the deity wants to do it that way; this is perfectly, absolutely logical and plausible...provided there is an omnipotent God and man is mortal and fallible).

Atheists will argue, "How convenient."

It's really awesome how god thinks like a man. "I do what I want, whateva"

[K3V]

If Adam and Eve only had 2 sons, Kane and Abel and Kane killed Abel.. then how the hell did the human race continue? Oh right, because it's a bunch of shit or he him and Eve.. his mom, well helped continue mankind.

Yes, all life is based on incest according to Christianity. I figured this out in study hall in junior high I think.

[Nick]

You couldnt fully enter the presence of god in heaven before jesus was sent to humanity.

So God loves us so much that He created us to commune with Him forever, but it took Him all that time to come up with a plan to make us worthy after the Fall? And there was a place that was neither in the presence of God nor the pit of eternal suffering where souls could just hang out? So, why does God feel the need to eternally torment souls He has a disagreement with? He's the Creator, so let Him put them in the holding cell forever or - better yet - destroy them or put them to sleep for eternity. Really, I'd rather kill a child with a shot to the head than know evil men will skin him alive.

Relax a little, Yahweh. Bend Your rules a little. You don't like us? Kill us. But the failure to make one instantaneous choice should not be punished by eternal damnation. The math does not add up for us. If it does in God's head, well good for Him, but we are talking about our souls and He has to accommodate that. I don't hold my child to the same standards I hold myself while she is a child.

Nick, how exactly do you see people being more likely to go to hell after jesus died? please qoute the part in the old testiment where people were admitted into heaven for just good works and no faith in God?

No, they still needed faith in God, but it was a more general faith and a simpler, much more intuitive plan.

Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life."

And from Numbers 15 - "And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him."

Now, you have to accept one particular sacrifice that happened two thousand years ago. In Psalms it says that along with the Word, nature testifies to the greatness of the LORD. I see people much more likely to accept a great God and have faith in that than believe that a guy that lived in the Middle East twenty centuries ago was divine power made flesh.

It's just a bad system, and if God truly desires to save the greater part of humanity, He's doing a terrible job of it.

i tend to see the gradual change coming from said magical being, so its a synthesis of the 2, then i dont have life popping up magically from some theoretic chemical process , nor the very off timeline of the literal biblical interpretation.

You are trying to explain a complicated system by introducing an infinitely more complicated one. God is infinitely more amazing than any of His creations or all of His creations taken together. To make an absurd example: if I eat out an entire week and all the food is good, I can theorize that my mom is secretly following me, running from restaurant to restaurant and cooking the meals I order. But why the hell would I? We explain more and more through science as our technology evolves and as we begin to shed the shackles of restrictive religious thought. Why do we need to keep clinging to the Mighty Ghost theory?

I will add that its odd you see all punishments as equal, how do you know? . . .you take the bible very literaly for an athiest nick.

God will say to the unsaved, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." That's pretty heavy stuff, and it sounds like He's using the same punishment for your cousin that only believes in smoking pot as He is for Jeffrey Dahmer and Ivan the Terrible. Oh, and for Satan.

My take on the Bible doesn't matter that much. The more we learn, the more ridiculous the Bible looks and the more fanciful. non-literal interpretations come up. If "God is not the Author of confusion" and "holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," how are we not to take it a little literally?

you are held responsable for choices you make, if you choose to act a certian way you are held responsable for it, if you dont have the options to choose you cannot be held responsable can you?

And by introducing the Cross, God narrowed the window you can use to get into Heaven. He damned more people than homosexuality or murder or sexual deviance ever could. Not bad for an eternity's work.

[Master of 7s]

Some Christians are pretty stupid, though. Some just don't even know what it is that they're worshiping. For example, apperantly Jesus was the son of God, as it states very clearly many times in the Bible. But you'd be surprised at how many people call Jesus "God".

That would be because He IS God. If you knew the Bible at all you'd know this.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All thing were made through Him and without Him nothhing was made that was made." John 1:1-3

Also read Colossians 1:15-18 and I John 5:7 to further understand why any Christian worth their salt calls Jesus, God. Moreover, Jesus Himself states that He and the Father are one in the same on several occassions.

The Godhead of the Christian faith is triune. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Three individual beings who are one unit.

Tell you what, rather that making sweeping judgements about something you obviously know nothing about why don't you try reading the book?

[g0zen]

Fuck all this, I want to be a Scientologist. So I can suck on Kristie Alley's big ole whale tits.