Would you like to know the benefits of being a Christian?

[Fe 26]

then thats how you choose to see it. part of following jesus is having faith, if a person dosent have that, than thats something they have chosen not to have.

faith is not a choice. Not real faith.

[frostwolf ex]

faith is not a choice. Not real faith.

splain

[Opaque]

it was a flood as wide as their world, its not incorrect as far as it went. It was in fact as true as it needed to be

As true as it needed to be? I don't know if that should be good enough.

What if Jesus didn't really turn water into wine, but rather he used water and grapes to make wine and it took a wile for it to ferment. But, in the bible, he does it really quick because that's how they chose to write it. But hey, it was in fact as true as it needed to be. What if God never spoke to Moses, but it made it easier for him to lead people if he told them that God did, and the people that wrote the bible never knew of his lies. Would that also be as true as it needed to be?

If anything in the Bible is wrong, even based on perception, the whole thing has reason to be brought into question.

[frostwolf ex]

As true as it needed to be? I don't know if that should be good enough.

What if Jesus didn't really turn water into wine, but rather he used water and grapes to make wine and it took a wile for it to ferment. But, in the bible, he does it really quick because that's how they chose to write it. But hey, it was in fact as true as it needed to be. What if God never spoke to Moses, but it made it easier for him to lead people if he told them that God did, and the people that wrote the bible never knew of his lies. Would that also be as true as it needed to be?

If anything in the Bible is wrong, even based on perception, the whole thing has reason to be brought into question.

the wine thing took place during a wedding, kind of hard to ferment wine that fast, as for the moses thing given that moses is shown speaking directly to god, then its kind of hard to equivocate. Im with you that every part can and should be brought into question, provided one comes to it with an open enough mind to actually attempt to seek answers, rather than to just justify their preconceptions.

[Opaque]

the wine thing took place during a wedding, kind of hard to ferment wine that fast, as for the moses thing given that moses is shown speaking directly to god, then its kind of hard to equivocate. Im with you that every part can and should be brought into question, provided one comes to it with an open enough mind to actually attempt to seek answers, rather than to just justify their preconceptions.

Well why would you even believe that wedding happened? Why would you believe Moses even existed? Just because it's in the Bible? We just proved that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it's true or even real.

And don't say faith, becuase you didn't believe in God before a preacher, or your parents or the Bible told you about him. If no one ever told you about God, you wouldn't believe in him right now, and the only reason anyone told you about him is because of the Bible. You believe in God because of a book that contains hyperbole and mixed facts.

[The_Meach]

Day by day though scientists are discovering that life might not be so rare as we once thought.

[Fe 26]

splain

faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

In nature it has nothing to with the physical, and the arguments that come from it. Meaning that faith comes from inside, or from God. It comes either from the passion of the soul and/or heart, or by the devine will of God.

EDIT: Can I get a raise of hands of all the athiest who have felt god and chose to not believe in him. How about a show of hands of athiest who have felt god in some way or the other.

Now can I get a show of hands from christnas who have felt God in some way, and that turned them down their path of faith.

[Josh]

Re Opaque:

We all know the Bible is preposterous.

Penn & Teller did this thread already... they don't need your help.

[Master of 7s]

I was thinking more along the lines of Celticism.

If that's the route your taking then the ankh is where you should start.

At no point in the text does Jesus declare himself a deity.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End" says the Lord "Who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8

"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead and behold I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and Death." Rev 1:17-18

"I and My Father are one" John 10:30

You, nor any other person for that matter, has the authority to declare Native American or any other belief system invalid or wrong.

I don't need to declare other belief systems invalid, Jesus said it plainly enough that He is the ONLY way into heaven, period. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one gets to the Father except through Him.

Furthermore, you (read that Bible) lack the authority to declare God's judgement.

I declare only what is written, bub. God's Word says there is no excuse for not knowing of God becuase the evidence of His existence is everywhere.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be know of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse," Romans 1:18-20

This passage is talking specifically about the Jews during the days of Exodus, but is still applicable today. God has shown Himself to exist, but people are spirtually blind.

I've never seen an atom or a molecule so why should I believe they exist?

The Book of Enoch and the other Dead Sea Scrolls
The Apochrypha
any histories of the Essene tribe that you can find.

I've read these.

At any rate I don't why I keep getting caught up in these pointless debates.
You are never going to sway me or my faith (I seen too much and too many of God's works to be rattled by worthless intellectualism) and I'm not going to change your mind about anything anyway. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with this.

[sethsez]

faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

In nature it has nothing to with the physical, and the arguments that come from it. Meaning that faith comes from inside, or from God. It comes either from the passion of the soul and/or heart, or by the devine will of God.

EDIT: Can I get a raise of hands of all the athiest who have felt god and chose to not believe in him. How about a show of hands of athiest who have felt god in some way or the other.

Now can I get a show of hands from christnas who have felt God in some way, and that turned them down their path of faith.

See, this is the thing... it'd be really nice to have an afterlife and spend all of eternity with a feeling of immeasurable joy... but I don't believe that it's reality. What Christians don't seem to get about those of us who don't believe is that we don't automatically hate the ideas of Christianity. The whole concept of heaven sounds pretty awesome. It just doesn't sound true. We're not saying "well, God's a twat and I'll ignore him," we're saying that we don't believe there is a God (at least in the Christian sense) at all.

I believe Jesus existed. I believe some of his teachings are incredibly important. I believe he was crucified. I do not, however, believe that he was really the son of God, nor do I believe he ascended to heaven.