Next Generation magazine returning.

[Diff-chan]

Thanks for shitting all over a good thread, guys.

[Scourge]

Thanks for shitting all over a good thread, guys.

Seriously. Good grief.

[James]

James, not to put too fine a point on it, but you like a lot of stupid garbage.

And you're a big fat stinky-head.

Or to put it another way- obviously I disagree. I've got valid reasons for liking every single game in my collection, but justifying that isn't worth the time it would take to type it out.

Also, the "games as art" debate is a waste of time. I just watched and had a great time with Hong Kong Shuffle, and at no point will anyone argue its artistic merit. I'm playing games for entertainment, and if art happens along the way then it's a bonus. In the meantime I really don't need to justify why what I do when I'm kicking back and relaxing is worth the time it takes.

James

[The_Meach]

The Mona Lisa was a commissioned painting of some merchant's wife. You're going to have to stretch reasoning so thin you couldn't use it as a condom to get that to apply to the human condition, yet countless people call it art without even thinking twice on the matter.

Most art is commissioned. Why would that preclude a work from having something to say about the human condition? I could go on for pages about what the ML has to say about Renaissance Italy, humanism and (shock!) the human condition. But enlightened discussion has no place in this thread (see: 'omgshittingalloverNGthreadbytalkingaboutart').

By it's very nature art isn't something you can quantify and break down into a simple to follow formula that allows you to judge whether something qualifies for its exhalted title or not. Art is all about it's effect on the viewer/listener in a way that moves them beyond the pure entertainment derived from the piece. Since not everyone is effected the same way, there can never be a clear cut definition.

This is the old 'art is personal' argument and I remained unconvinced, for no other reason than it allows situations where an individual can say the plastic spork I picked up at Wendy's is art.

[Diff-chan]

Most art is commissioned. Why would that preclude a work from having something to say about the human condition? I could go on for pages about what the ML has to say about Renaissance Italy, humanism and (shock!) the human condition. But enlightened discussion has no place in this thread (see: 'omgshittingalloverNGthreadbytalkingaboutart').

No, its that this stupid topic has been done to death a hundred thousand times on ten thousand videogame forums and nobody has ever changed their opinion or convinced anyone of anything. Its a waste of time, and a meaningless argument. And besides, does it really matter what us dorks think about what art is and how it relates to current game design? Is any of us actually designing games? Is any of us actually gonna go out and try to change things? If you are planning to someday, then GREAT! But you already have your opinions and these so-called enlightened discussions arent gonna change them and you know it. Let's face it, art is a nebulous concept and opinions differ radically.

Lets just come to the realization that TNL, like every other internet site, is a big meaningless circle jerk so we might as well drop the pretention and have some fun.

Besides, havent you heard the old adage "the corporate world is a lot like Donkey Kong, no matter how far up the ladder you get there's always a big stupid ape above you"? OMG DONKEY KONG = HUMAN CONDITION = ARTS0R!

Shut up and stop being a pretentious asshat.

[Joust Williams]

Yeah, but I could make those crap paintings in 5 minutes. I can't make the spork that well in an hour. And if art ISN'T PERSONAL, then what you linked to certainly isn't art because it doesn't mean jack crap to anyone other than the artist. OO SOME RED SQUIGGLES AND BLUE SPLOTTERS

I
am an apple
a bus floats next to me
a ant crawls upon me
an apple am
I

That is some art right there...actually, that is some bull

[The_Meach]

No, its that this stupid topic has been done to death a hundred thousand times on ten thousand videogame forums and nobody has ever changed their opinion or convinced anyone of anything. Its a waste of time, and a meaningless argument. And besides, does it really matter what us dorks think about what art is and how it relates to current game design? Is any of us actually designing games? Is any of us actually gonna go out and try to change things? If you are planning to someday, then GREAT! But you already have your opinions and these so-called enlightened discussions arent gonna change them and you know it. Let's face it, art is a nebulous concept and opinions differ radically.

Thank you Captain Obvious. How many times does someone change their mind on a videogame forum? That's right, never. Does that mean having a discussion is worthless? No.

I think it *does* matter what 'us dorks' think about art and how it relates to videogames. If we refuse to grow up and only want to play 'entertaining' games or dead-end games that will never be art (see: old-school 2D shooters), videogames will not become art. I used to play games exclusively to be entertained and have a good time. Like watching football on TV. Now I want something a little more...meaty. I want something I can sink my teeth into and digest. I want something that will satisfy my curiosity about what it means to be human.

I want to make it clear that, althought I think I'm right, the whole point of having this discussion is to see if I really am. I want to talk w/ppl who disagree with me. I want to be convinced I'm wrong (or that I'm right). What a horrible way to go thru life, convinced of one's rightness and never talking with anyone who disagrees with you.

[Joust Williams]

Unfortunately, that is impossible.

[Diff-chan]

How many 2D shooters still come out? Think about it.

Besides, you know, one man against the world, everyone gunning for him, wow, sounds like the human condition and what it feels like to be down on your luck. TWO DEE SHOOTERS R ARTS0R TOO!

And its great that you have figured out the question that has troubled the world's greatest minds for thousands of years - "what is art". Thank you, The_Meach, for answering this question once and for all. Maybe now there can be peace.

I want something that will satisfy my curiosity about what it means to be human.

Then stop chatting in TNL and start playing some Donkey Kong and 2D shooters.

[sethsez]

So The_Meach, what the fuck is "the human condition" anyway, and how do you manage to justify a building commenting on it while Ico (or Sonic, who cares) doesn't?

And you claim art isn't personal, and then in the same breath go right back to "commenting on the human condition" which is a concept so vague it might as well be meaningless. Who's to say what does and does not comment on the "human condition"?

btw nextgen were graphics whores