Graphic Design Discussion and Questions

[Drewbacca]

I don't believe that.

That's because it's popular theory to believe artists are unique and special. I myself am lazy, I used to paint and do all sorts of stuff and then I just stopped drawing daily and I've suffered because of it.

My art teacher took one of these students who joined his class as a way to goof off and taught him approaches and techniques. This kid said he had no artistic bones in his entire body. My high school art teacher pushed him and he drew realistic figures and facial close-ups in league with some of the talented artists. You can change the way people perceive and how their hand translates it to paper. I've seen him do this with 5 or 6 students in the three classes I took with him over 2 years.

Now, he's a great teacher. He didn't push people in a way that insulted them, but did make fun of them if they were lazy and obviously "anti-establishment" oriented and wasn't afraid to do terrible magic tricks at the front of class at the end of a test or quiz to help pass the time and make students feel more relaxed. Obviously he was both a talented artist, and teacher that proved to be the exception of the popular cliche those who can't do, teach. This isn't the case for most of the teacher's I've met.

Most teachers don't want to take the time to help the students who need it. They want to focus on the students who have the talent and don't need it. If you're a teacher of a design class and your philosophy is that you can't TEACH people good design then you shouldn't be employed.

[Finch]

Can people who don't like art become good artists? Can people who see no benefit to drawing become good artists? Does everyone have the capacity to be a good surgeon, writer, or whatever it is that mathematecians do? Should a doctor feel special because not everyone's a doctor? I believe he or she has every right to.

On another side of things, everyone has their own way of drawing, just as everyone has their own way of thinking and communicating. I am fascinated by that and love to see that pushed. However, if there's no motivation to get better, it doesn't matter how good of a teacher you are. You can plead, bargain, show them all you know, show them people who started from nothing at a late age, tell them what they're doing wrong and right, praise them, humiliate them, yell at them for hours, and still achieve nothing.
I have small classes, so i can know every single student. A few of them are in the as of yet undefined "graphics" program, and genuinely want to go into game design or character design and such. Those are great students and no matter how bad they are, will improve. Then there are those who take the class as an elective and don't give a shit. They'll skip class, they'll sit there and do no work at all, and they'll complain how the class is worthless to them. I don't care if they don't think they can draw, but if not something that they enjoy or will benfit them, i certainly won't push them as hard as the people who want to improve. Why should i do that? They want a grade, while others want to advance what they know.
Of course you can teach design, but everyone learns differently. Anyone can draw realistically if they can draw lines on paper. To me, drawing realistically isn't drawing well. If that's all there was to it, you could trace a photograph. Some people are good artists and draw realistically, but that's not all there is to it, and learning design won't do anything unless you learn yourself to apply it in your own way to create what you want.

Um... I hope that makes sense.

[rama]

That's what I've been trying to do. Checking out design magazines is one thing he suggested (which, my floor is littered with the fucking things now), but still I am badgered.

ok, here's a question!!!! are you always working on projects and drawing something to be finished? well....back in school when i was going through major style changes from just anime stuff to....whatever i do now (check my website link in my sig) i had to stop drawing. i had to stop drawing comics an coloring pictures and all that stuff. i didn't do a finished pic for almost 3 years. well.....maybe one here and there...but...the point i'm trying to make is that you have to practice it outside of....uh....finishing something. i have a friend who's allways drawing comics and stuff....and he says he wants to try a new style or whatever. he comes up with somethings, starts another comic, then slips back into what he knows/is used to...'cause he never took the time to just play around, practice and just plain not worry about what the results are if he fukks up a few times.

so....besides just giving this teacher what he wants ('cause you'll have to if you wanna pass the class) just try and incorporate stuff you like into your...whatever you do regularly. just fukking play around and have fun with it. if you see something you like, COPY IT! there's nothing wrong with copying so long as you can pull something from it and use it in your own way. just doing that in itself will lead you to new/more ideas and ways of thinking about things. gaaaahhh....i just had all those thoughts at once. i hope it makes sense.

[Drewbacca]

Can people who don't like art become good artists? Can people who see no benefit to drawing become good artists? Does everyone have the capacity to be a good surgeon, writer, or whatever it is that mathematecians do? Should a doctor feel special because not everyone's a doctor? I believe he or she has every right to.

On another side of things, everyone has their own way of drawing, just as everyone has their own way of thinking and communicating. I am fascinated by that and love to see that pushed. However, if there's no motivation to get better, it doesn't matter how good of a teacher you are. You can plead, bargain, show them all you know, show them people who started from nothing at a late age, tell them what they're doing wrong and right, praise them, humiliate them, yell at them for hours, and still achieve nothing.
I have small classes, so i can know every single student. A few of them are in the as of yet undefined "graphics" program, and genuinely want to go into game design or character design and such. Those are great students and no matter how bad they are, will improve. Then there are those who take the class as an elective and don't give a shit. They'll skip class, they'll sit there and do no work at all, and they'll complain how the class is worthless to them. I don't care if they don't think they can draw, but if not something that they enjoy or will benfit them, i certainly won't push them as hard as the people who want to improve. Why should i do that? They want a grade, while others want to advance what they know.
Of course you can teach design, but everyone learns differently. Anyone can draw realistically if they can draw lines on paper. To me, drawing realistically isn't drawing well. If that's all there was to it, you could trace a photograph. Some people are good artists and draw realistically, but that's not all there is to it, and learning design won't do anything unless you learn yourself to apply it in your own way to create what you want.

Um... I hope that makes sense.

If someone doesn't want to do something you can't make them. But these kids I saw learn and become pretty great at it when they couldn't be bothered ended up coming back the next year. That's talent.

Maybe I was fortunate (read: lucky) to have a teacher who was good at everything he did (teach, draw, entertain, engage, etc.) but I think it was just the fact that he took the time to show this kid that he could draw realistically. He used the class time he had to, and get this, teach this kid. Anyway, the point here is that artistry, atleast the technical rendering of it, can be taught and learnt by anyone willing to learn and practice a little bit, even if it's only on class time. Creative thinking probably can't be taught, because it's a way of thinking and brainstorming. Then again, everyone has a good idea when they collaborate, which is always where the best advertising and creative idea's come from in this field.

Oh and not everyone can be a surgeon because they require very still hands. You can't learn still hands, you have to be born with them.

[Dunlap]

As much as people like to hate on teachers, I wonder about the students. Too often I see kids going to class who don't like hearing what the teacher has to tell them, and thus will ignore whatever help they try to give. "They can't tell me what to do, this is art!" Guess what, you're a student, you're there to learn, not do your own thing. If he wants you to emulate David Carson, do it. Sure, there are teachers that aren't very good, but if you want to learn from them shouldn't you be trying to work with them in a way that you get something worthwhile out of the experience? I think most problems could be solved that way.

[Kaneda]

Yea but that's no fun. Teachers can have plenty of useful advice, but if someone is insisting that I draw a straight line and they're mad all I want is doodles, then fuck em, they can draw the straight line. I dropped my graphic design major after just a couple of classes, I hated that shit. Fonts and negative spaces are stupid if all they culminate into is a Burger King billboard. I could give a shit how clever the minimalism of that picture of a single sesame seed against a white background is. No matter how good it gets, it's still fucking Burger King. It's not your own.

I'm sure there's people that feel some creativity with the medium, but it drove me nuts. I just want a pen and some ink to dip it in, not sans seriffs and Photoshop.

(Incidentally, in one of my projects we had to design a brochure advertising a font of our choice. I proudly proclaimed on mine "Fuck sans seriffs and fuck every other bullshit font, they're all stupid. Chicago is king!" My teacher was not amused. Naturally, after class people came up to me individually to commend me on my fine work).

[FirstBlood]

Yea but that's no fun. If someone is insisting that I draw a straight line and they're mad all I want is doodles, then fuck em, they can draw the straight line. I dropped my graphic design major after just a couple of classes, I hated that shit. Fonts and negative spaces are stupid if all they culminate into is a Burger King billboard. I could give a shit how clever the minimalism of that picture of a single sesame seed against a white background is. No matter how good it gets, it's still fucking Burger King. It's not your own.

That's a pretty niave way to look at it. A good designer makes the design their own.

I mean, if I wanted to think about it all artsy-fartsy-like, I could say that there's something interesting about pulling your inspiration from monolithic corporation, and seeing what you can do with it. It definitely separates itself from simply drawings and paintings that are solely about your individual expression.

Bottom line, rejecting design as a whole from an artistic standpoint is pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

[Kaneda]

Expert craftsmanship and character are what draw me in, so in general I like illustrators or painters. The fact that following some guideline that the employer is looking for provides a challenge for some doesn't mean anything to me. Someone shouldn't have to have a guideline to follow in order to express themselves. I think Photoshop and computers are a crutch and prevent people from developing necessary artistic skills.

Besides, even the best designs look ugly to me. When we sat through slide shows of the best in the business, all I could think was "that's what I'm shooting for?" Now when I see a good logo I think, "hey those letters become symmetrical when you flip one of them around like that. neat. anyways, back to reading Berserk." I know it's not fair to lump all of graphic design into typography and advertising, but that's the kind I've been exposed to.

[FirstBlood]

Well theres plenty of design out there that is 100% illustration driven.

Also, It's not like there's much difference between illustrating someone's story with pen & ink and illustrating a company's advertisement with image & word. Sure the idea of illustrating a story is far more romanticized throughout history but they're both simply producing an image based on outside source. But of course writing your own story and illustrating it yourself is a more commendable artistic endevor, but I wouldn't discredit people for using other's ideas before their own. Individuality is overrated, plus there's a certain sort of individuality that is revealed when working from someone else's idea or image.

But as far as computers being a crutch, I wouldn't outwardly call them a crutch, but many people use them that way, such as when people try to recreate brushstrokes or texture, when they would be so much better off with a brush and ink or the actual textured object and a scanner. That shit pisses me off.

[Finch]

Individuality won't make you a got dang dime, 'less you really lucky or some shit. But hell, long as you expectin' not to make nuthin', you could very well be the happiest man alive, doin your own shit and such. Plus, man, finding your own way to tackle doing something someone else's way is all part of life. All i have to say is, good luck to ya.

Fixed.

But as far as computers being a crutch, I wouldn't outwardly call them a crutch, but many people use them that way, such as when people try to recreate brushstrokes or texture, when they would be so much better off with a brush and ink or the actual textured object and a scanner. That shit pisses me off.

Brush strokes in whatever computer program can look like shit. If you spend more than three minutes on it, it can look nice, and different enough to justify itself. You can't erase ink and paint quite as easily in real life.