Three Great Game Design Evils

[Fe 26]

Game stories are so fucking terrible.

I never really understand this complaint. A lot of game plots are just about as good as modern block busters, but we all go see those.

What exactly do people want for a story? Shakespear? Poe? Through the looking glass? ER? what?

EDIT: no smarmyness, just curious

[avatar]

Exactly how long is Xenosaga, from beginning to end? How much of that is spent watching "information?" Far too much, in my opinion. There are other ways to get the story across without forcing the player to sit there for hours watching it unfold whether he likes it or not. Use the in-game engine, make it journal entries like Metroid Prime, anything. Forcing the character to spend almost half the game watching a movie isn't the most ideal way to go about it.

Being able to skip the scenes is useless when the whole story is done this way exclusively. You're basically telling the player that he doesn't have to watch the scenes if he doesn't want to, but that he'll end up not knowing what's going on if he doesn't. What's the point of making them skippable then? When I looked at my playtime and realized that almost 40% of it had been spent watching cut scenes, I stopped playing and never touched the game again. It just seemed so stupid to me.

Xenosaga is an exception becuase 1. The game is meant for the cutscenes and 2. no other games have cutscenes that long that frequently.

If you don't football don't play madden. Don't like stealth then don't play Splinter Cell and if you don't like Cutscenes don't fucking play xenosaga.

[Diff-chan]

If you don't football don't play madden. Don't like stealth then don't play Splinter Cell and if you don't like Cutscenes don't fucking play xenosaga.

At least you can play football and stealth. Cutscenes aren't gameplay.

They're just bullshit.

[SoldatoJ]

I hate fucking box puzzles. While playing through God of War (superb game otherwise) I just balked when the first box puzzle hit.


Also

The problem is when they arn't skipable, which is just ridiculous.

Unskippable cutscenes suck. Like in fucking BLACK the first time through on PS2 (plus the cutscenes are absolutely ridiculous/stupid/shitty). I mean, I will almost always watch a cutscene the first time through. Actually, I think Black was the first time I was repeatedly hitting any button, just praying to be able to skip them...

[Compass]

Xenosaga is an exception becuase 1. The game is meant for the cutscenes and 2. no other games have cutscenes that long that frequently.

If you don't football don't play madden. Don't like stealth then don't play Splinter Cell and if you don't like Cutscenes don't fucking play xenosaga.

Exactly.

[MechDeus]

Use the in-game engine

Almost all of Xenosaga's cutscenes are using the in-game engine. Honestly, did you even play it?

There are other ways to get the story across without forcing the player to sit there for hours watching it unfold whether he likes it or not. Use the in-game engine, make it journal entries like Metroid Prime, anything.

Ever play Xenogears? Remember when they ran out of production time for cutscenes and made you read for so long that there were save points during the pages of text that you had to scroll through? Yes, there are better ways to do it but even if it was 100% controllable conversations on the level of something like KOTOR it's still going to be hours of talking. That's just what happens when there's a lot of information.

I do find it funny that all the games you're listing as having better story integration have such little story in the first place that they're throwaway. Lunar originally gained recognition not because it had a good story with great characters, but instead because it had anime cutscenes. Metroid Prime was not loved by so many because people thought it really conveyed that bird people once lived on a planet. (Yes, I know what you're getting at, but the usage of Lunar in particular struck me as ironic.)

You're basically telling the player that he doesn't have to watch the scenes if he doesn't want to, but that he'll end up not knowing what's going on if he doesn't.

...Waitaminute. You're complaining that if the player skips the story portions then he won't know what's going on in the story? Well, duh. If I skipped all the conversations in any RPG I wouldn't know what was going on in that game either.

Just because the graphics are good and the characters are voiced doesn't mean it's different from the story conversations in other RPGs. I think you're confusing good production values with CG.

What's the point of making them skippable then?

For one thing, if you're trying to get something rare from an area but everytime you repeat a section you have to watch the same cutscene over and over. For instance, in FFX I was determined to win the first Blitzball tournament and the cutscenes during the final match were as long as the match itself, but since there was no way to skip them I had to watch them over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Absolutely maddening. Also, if you die on a boss but there's a big chunk of story right before the fight, it's annoying to watch something I just saw two minutes ago when all I want to do is work on progression.

When I looked at my playtime and realized that almost 40% of it had been spent watching cut scenes, I stopped playing and never touched the game again. It just seemed so stupid to me.

A lot of that has to do with how Xenosaga gives you a much better view of the characters, world, and circumstances leading up to the major events then most RPGs. I understand you not liking Xenosaga because you wanted to wander around and level up more often and I know where you're coming from, but everything you're trying to bring up as the supporting reasons don't have any thought put into them.

[Melf]

If you don't football don't play madden. Don't like stealth then don't play Splinter Cell and if you don't like Cutscenes don't fucking play xenosaga.

Yes, because entire genres of gameplay are the same as using cut scenes to tell a story...

are[/i] using the in-game engine. Honestly, did you even play it?

I'm was referring to using it along with other methods, and not just sticking to one single style for the whole game. Xenogears didn't vary things enough to keep me interested, and I found myself getting up for a sandwhich every time it was time for more story.

I do find it funny that all the games you're listing as having better story integration have such little story in the first place that they're throwaway. Lunar originally gained recognition not because it had a good story with great characters, but instead because it had anime cutscenes.

See, I don't agree with this at all. You can't compare an early Sega CD RPG to Xenosaga and say that the story was "throwaway." How did you reach that conclusion? Because 3/4 of the disc wasn't taken up by cut scenes? I've never spoken to anyone about the series who didn't know the character's names and what the story was about. No one remembers just the cut scenes. The story in Lunar was deep enough for the time, but never seemed to get in the way of the gameplay, which is what I'm trying to say. I don't care how "integrated" you're trying to make the story, if I spend as much time hearing and reading it as I do playing, something is wrong.

Metroid Prime was not loved by so many because people thought it really conveyed that bird people once lived on a planet. (Yes, I know what you're getting at, but the usage of Lunar in particular struck me as ironic.)

I'd have to ask you if you've played it then, because it's a great example of what I'm saying. Those who wanted the full story about the Chozo, the space pirates, and where Samus came from could scan and read everything. Those who didn't care didn't have to. No skipping, no pauses. Sure, the game gives you story so that you at least see how things progress, but it never gets in the way. It was basically as deep as you decided to make it.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, because I don't think we're getting through to each other.

[Cowutopia]

3 minutes to develop the story? If you can't spare 3 minutes to understandf the story then...oh well.

And lo, we return to the point.

You don't need three minutes of cutscenes to develop story. In fact, you don't need any.

[avatar]

Xenosaga is a game that relies on it's story. The story is mainly told through Cutscenes. If you don't like cutscenes you won't like xenosaga.

Problem is they are a lot of people who don't go anal over cutscenes. Therefore no one is getting rid of them.

[Melf]

The same can be said for bad 3D cameras and rubberband AI. Does that make it invalid to dislike them then?