Bush Administration wants to keep torture secret

[g0zen]

That said, you repeatedly come off as if you see nothing wrong with Islamic Terrorism- thats why you piss people off.

You show me anywhere where I have advocated for Islamic terrorism outside of your own mind. None exists, I do not nor have I ever supported radical Islamic fundamentalism. What I do support, however, is the Bill of Rights and the foundations of American democracy. I want the rights of everyone guaranteed, regardless of what I think of them or their ideology. That is what it means to believe in a truly free society.

[Razor Ramon]

Remember Algiers!

[Tracer]

Because I'm an American who believes in the rights that are inalienable to man. What's your excuse?

Ownt.

[sethsez]

When did I say inhumane actions were justified? Why are you so sympathetic to "the enemy" anyway?

Because a basic sympathy and understanding of human values for everyone, including our enemies, is one of the things that set our nation apart when it was first created and as it rose to power. We've faltered, no doubt, but it's always been something that's defined us as a nation and is one of the reasons we became the most influencial superpower in the world after being a little pissant bunch of colonies less than 300 years ago.

You're confusing a desire for equally applied basic human rights with specific sympathy for our enemies. Much like freedom of speech, the concept only matters and has power if you're willing to apply it to the lowest of the low.

[Anthony]

Because I'm an American who believes in the rights that are inalienable to man. What's your excuse?

I just thought this post should appear again in this thread.

[youandwhosearmy]

If the US can not survive by sticking to its guns, then it needs to fall. Mutating into something different for the sake of survival is not acceptable. We are not a nation of animals. We are men.

Exactly.

I'm not gonna quote Benjaman Franklin here or anything, but its the whole point. Olberman gave the greatest rant about this on Countdown (I really don't care if he's a partisan hack, he's right) and the truth is, the terroists win no matter what now.

One because you can't kill an ideal. Its just not possible. The best you can hope is too mutate it.

and Two, we've changed and given up essential liberties for this. If you need an education on this subject because you've bought into the fact that the Terroists "want" the Dems in office so we sympathize with them, well then you should probably know that what is happening in America right now is exactly what the terroists wanted.

Us to live in fear. Us to write the administration a "blank check drawn against our own freedom." Us to trust that this power will only be used for the most crucial reasons imaginable, and truly believe that the power that we've given this Presiemperor, will be used justly and rightfully, when all he has done is lie. There is nothing right about the military picking people up off the street and being able to cart them away to a place without giving any explanation. There is nothing right with sacrificing your own rights so that you feel a little bit safer. You wanna do that, then move to another country, cause your not American. Thats not the American way. It never has been it never will be.

I have other news for you guys as well. America is an Ideal. The way we live our lives is a belief we are supposed to cling too no matter what. Thats the price of being an American, to not be afraid of speaking out against the government. To not be afraid to fight terror and to live your lives as free as possible. To not give up ANY of your freedom is how you win, because the price of freedom is danger. It isn't safe to have freedom, it never will be. It never has been. People are inherently gulliable, when all you do is sell them the end of the world, they'll slowly lose their will to resist and slowly give up whatever liberties exist to assuage those fears.

And the terroists are sitting back and watching us mutate that ideal to be a little more like the terroists. And its funny to them. Because they are winning. Some would say they've already won. You know why?

Because they don't care if they EXIST. They only care if we don't. They only care if they can warp us and change us and make America a little more like them. Their war is to destroy us, but they have a far better idea of how to do that than we do of how to destroy them. You see because the act of killing is not the definition of terrorism. Its the threat of killing. Its the thought of killing. This war is about control and fear. Thats it.

This is ridiculous. What Yoshi says is ridiculous. He's asked me to leave HIS country before because I didn't like it. Well Yoshi let me throw down a Bushism for ya if I can. Your either with what America stands for or against it, and if you support this act and are so willing to give up essential liberties for a little bit of safety you have (and never have) had any idea what it means to be an American.

Thank you for your time.

[Othello Harrington]

The only way to destroy an ideal is through education.

[The_Meach]

When I need information on a complex subject I turn to The Atlantic. TNL should too.

Mark Bowden's article on the issue of torture.

[g0zen]

That article is alright, but it paints an unbalanced picture by giving the impression that all those taken into custody are already guilty (like KSM). Let's not forget what happened to Maher Arar and others like him. The stain of what we allowed (and even encouraged) to happen to him is not just the 'wink, nudge' of coercion but outright torture.

[Calliander]

Biff, you were very well spoken there.

I remember being all apathetic about what the government was doing. I was like, 'I'll never be one of those major haters...' Now, everything that shows up in the news makes me dislike this administration more and more, this blatant mockery of basic human rights included.