Official MLB Thread: June 2007

[BioMechanic]

I think what Webb has done is a hell of a lot more impressive than what Jenks did. 41 innings with no runs allowed with three complete game shutouts in a row? Simply amazing.

While I certainly won't argue that what Webb's done is amazing, I will argue that Jenks' streak is a more impressive feat.

Webb is in a groove with everything working, and knows he'll go every fifth day, so he can prepare himself. Jenks never had a chance to get in a rhythm and never had the luxury of knowing when he was going to pitch. He also ran a much higher risk of not having his best stuff since he pitched more often. That's 0-41: no walks, no cheap bloop hits, no errors, no fly balls lost in the lights. Zero success rate. Forty-one guys in a row failed to get on base. That's mindblowing. Lucky, but no less than Webb's. Webb's streak is three games. Jenks' was spread out over something like a month and a half.

Webb could let 15 guys get on base in nine innings and not give up a run. I remember one game during Hershiser's streak where he gave up 13 hits and five walks in nine innings - yeah, no runs, but that's not exactly a dominating outing.

Forty-one scoreless innings in a row is indeed phenomenal, but Jenks' streak was nothing less than flawless and complete domination.

[Saint of Killers]

Yeah, and Jenks gets to go out there and throw 100 MPH+ heat at every batter he faces. Webb has to save himself to go nine innings.

[SpoDaddy]

You're making too big a deal about the whole "closers don't have to pace themselves" thing. Yes, they don't have to go more than an inning, but they also aren't guaranteed a day of rest between appearances (let alone 4 days of rest). In a tough spot a starter can empty the tank and know that he'll have 4 days to recover; if a closer empties the tank he might have to come back out the next day with nothing.

As for the Gagne thing, I said from the beginning that I was terrified when rumors were flying that he was going to the Yankees. I watched the guy pitch for the Rangers his last 4 or 5 appearances before the deadline and he's just not the same guy he was in 2003. His fastball has no movement anymore and now that he's not juicing he can't bring the same velocity he used to. Boston had something special with the lights out Okajima-Papelbon tandem and they fucked it all up just to keep Gagne off the Yankees. I also maintain that Kason Gabbard is a great young pitcher that Boston should have kept. He's not as flashy as a guy like Bucholtz but he's shown himself to be Jimmy Key reborn so far on the major league level. He just pitched 6 innings of 1-run ball yesterday for Texas. Boston should have kept the bullpen the way it was, traded for a bat, and ignored what the Yankees were doing.

[A Robot Bit Me]

What the fuck? The Gagne trade did nothing to compromise the Okajima xx Papelbon combo. Furthermore, the sawx were seven or eight games up around the time of the Gagne acquisition, so the "keep him off the Jankees" theory is specious at the very least.

Today's game was satisfying. Ortiz with the go-ahead grandslam, excellent bullpen performance, the intentional walk to get to Manny who proceeded to slap a 2 RBI gap shot -- it was a deep-tissue massage to Red Sox fans who have been suffering gut-shots for the past few days.

As much as I would've liked to see Clemens and NYY hand one over to Detroit, they put on a truly entertaining show this afternoon. Clemens worked out of innumerable jams...I think he gave up only two runs on something like ten hits. I'm reluctant to admit it in front of fellow Red Sox fans, but the Yankees lineup is really fun to watch when it hits its stride. Bobby Abreu sweet as candy brings an indescribable spark to the plate in every at bat.

[Saint of Killers]

The trade was dumb. The Sox bullpen has been lights out. There was no reason to bring in Gagne. If they wanted him to close next year so they could put Papelbon in the rotation they could have gone after him in free agency (which they would have to do anyway, although I don't see that happening now).

[stormy]

There's nothing dumb about getting more good bullpen arms. He hasn't performed yet but that doesn't make their reasoning bad. The bullpen has been good all year but it's thin. After Papelbon and Okajima the only decent arm is Delcarmen. Donnelly had just gone down for the year, Timlin is pretty much cooked, Papelbon is awesome but there are still injury concerns from last year about him getting worn out again, and Okajima has been on pace to pitch way more innings then he has in Japan the last few years, so they have to cut back on his usage. The Sox were one bullpen injury from serious trouble in the playoffs, so the trade alleviates that and will allow Papelbon and Okajima to save themselves. In theory anyway, Gangne is pitching like shit.

The Sox aren't resigning him, so they will get compensation pics at the end of the season since Gagne is type A. This was also part of the decision to trade Gabbard for him, because they can replace the prospect as well. There was no immediate need for Gabbard with Buchholz and Lester around either.

[A Robot Bit Me]

Timlin is pretty much cooked,

Que? Timlin has been lights out his past four or five appearances. I never thought I'd again see the day where I was relieved to see him saunter out of the bullpen. I have more confidence in him than Delcarmen right now.

[stormy]

Que? Timlin has been lights out his past four or five appearances. I never thought I'd again see the day where I was relieved to see him saunter out of the bullpen. I have more confidence in him than Delcarmen right now.

He looks good now and then, but do you trust him in the playoffs? I don't.

[SpoDaddy]

What the fuck? The Gagne trade did nothing to compromise the Okajima xx Papelbon combo.

It severely compromised the Okajima-Papelbon combo. You had two relievers settled into established roles pitching lights out all season and now you've deposed Okajima with a guy that can't get hitters out anymore. Gagne's own shittiness is bad enough (he's easily cost you 4 games already) but the collateral damage is Okajima getting torn out of his routine (relief pitchers thrive on having established roles) and as a result he's been less effective.

Furthermore, the sawx were seven or eight games up around the time of the Gagne acquisition, so the "keep him off the Jankees" theory is specious at the very least.

The Yankees had just gone 22-7 (with their only deficiency being a setup man and Gagne rumors everywhere) while the Red Sox were playing 2 games under .500 for the previous couple months; that combined with history had Boston freaking the fuck out. To pretend otherwise is silly.

There's nothing dumb about getting more good bullpen arms. He hasn't performed yet but that doesn't make their reasoning bad.

It does because the bullpen was already great; they needed to trade for a bat instead with Ortiz and Manny breaking down before our eyes and Lowell's history of wearing out in the second half.

The Sox aren't resigning him, so they will get compensation pics at the end of the season since Gagne is type A. This was also part of the decision to trade Gabbard for him, because they can replace the prospect as well. There was no immediate need for Gabbard with Buchholz and Lester around either.

Epstein's plan was clearly to re-sign Gagne at the end of the year to be the closer for 2008 (having him already on the team gives Boston a big advantage in signing him), which would enable him to move Papelbon into the rotation (something he's desperately wanted to do for a while now and did before 2007 until he realized at the 11th hour that he didn't have a decent closer to replace him).

Giving away a young pitcher with a great ERA on the major league level based on the rationale that you can replace him with a compensation pick in the next year's draft makes no sense. Bucholtz and Lester are promising young pitchers but you can never have enough promising young pitchers because you never know how many will actually make the leap to greatness. Of the three Gabbard had done the most on the major league level. I think Lester has the least upside of the three to be honest; I love him for overcoming cancer and showing so much courage in doing so but objectively he doesn't have the stuff Bucholtz does or the guile that Gabbard does.

[Saint of Killers]

Timlin is pretty much cooked

He's got a 1.05 WHIP, a .231 BAA and a .661 OPSA. That is pretty far from cooked.

It does because the bullpen was already great; they needed to trade for a bat instead with Ortiz and Manny breaking down before our eyes and Lowell's history of wearing out in the second half.

Manny is definitely having an off year but Ortiz is OPSing .983. That is good for third in the AL with offense down across the board this year. I'll take a whole team of broken down players just like him. You don't have to hit 40 HRs to be really good offensively. And even on an off year Ramirez is still damn good.

Also Lowell is hitting better post All Star break than he was pre. Not much better but still.

I really don't think the Sox need a bat. They've scored the third most runs in the AL while giving up the least. The only really glaring hole in their lineup is Lugo and he's been pretty good since the All Star break. I think they should have just held on to Gabbard. Hell, if Theo thought they needed bullpen help he could've stuck him in the bullpen.

Edit: I need a fucking thesaurus. I can't believe how many times I used "good" in this post.