Mea Culpa

[Master of 7s]

That's because you don't have even a remotely good retort.

Irony meter just broke with this one.

LOL! How the fuck do you get that our solar system is in some remote part of the known universe? Did you read it on a map? No, you're just pulling that out of your ass. Also, how do you say sentient life obviously exists? Again, what possible evidence do you have to support this other than your own crackpot beliefs?

Since you're deliberately being stupid here I'm going to ignore it and pretend you didn't ask. Especially since you claim to be a scientist.

[g0zen]

That's kind of bullshit, though. It's inescapable that the fundamental forces that govern physicality are such because it is their very nature to be such.

Actually that is kind of bullshit. What are you even saying here? These are not some ethereal forces waiting to exert their 'nature' on the universe, they are real and measurable that interplay on each other. That's it. There's nothing deeply philosophical or spiritual going on here, and I challenge you to show me any evidence to think otherwise.

Yes it might not be one single force (though I'm not convinced it isn't based solely on the fact that we haven't figured out how the handful that we have defined relate to each other), but it still is simply because it is and drives everything else.

Again, your use of language here is more confusing than logical. We know quite well it isn't a single force. If it was then why would there be forces that conflict and even negate eachother? If there is a harmony, a unity, then there should be no conflict in the perfect system. Instead, though, we have an interplay of forces whose messy outcome is the universe. It ain't perfect, but it's ours damnit.

When I speak of intelligence, I speak onlyand if it is systematic, ordered, and results in tremendous complexity it can be said to be intelligent. Not that it is a mind per se (since I don't believe that to be the case). But there is clearly causation and order in the universe. The nature of the laws of that govern it would seem to be creative.

When wind and water create a mountain, no one considers it the work of a great sculptor. There is no law that said that mountain had to be there then because if it wasn't the entire balance of the universe would be thrown out of whack, that's ridiculous. The laws only apply in that they explain the forces at work at any one time. There is no grand design, intelligent or no. Causation and order are not in the universe, only in man's flawed perception of it.

[g0zen]

Since you're deliberately being stupid here I'm going to ignore it and pretend you didn't ask. Especially since you claim to be a scientist.

Again, if you have evidence to prove me wrong bring it forward, I assure you if your case is strong the many nuthangers out there looking for 'gotchas' on me will come to support you. Right now though you're lost in the woods.

[Master of 7s]

Since you're deliberately being stupid here I'm going to ignore it and pretend you didn't ask.

[Frogacuda]

There's nothing deeply philosophical or spiritual going on here, and I challenge you to show me any evidence to think otherwise.

I'm simply describing it in those terms, not exerting that it is anything different than what it is.

Again, your use of language here is more confusing than logical. We know quite well it isn't a single force. If it was then why would there be forces that conflict and even negate eachother? If there is a harmony, a unity, then there should be no conflict in the perfect system. Instead, though, we have an interplay of forces whose messy outcome is the universe. It ain't perfect, but it's ours damnit.

It's not so messy. And it may well be several forces, but it does seem that the more we know about the universe, the fewer the forces of nature become, and the more complex the system for describing the interplay of these forces is. Doesn't seem unreasonable to think we may be able to reduce it further still. At the very least we shouldn't rule out the possibility.

There is no grand design, intelligent or no. Causation and order are not in the universe, only in man's flawed perception of it.

Bullshit. The universe can be described mathematically. You can't get more ordered than that. If protons and electrons repelled each other instead of attracting each other, nothing would exist. There is most certainly an order to existence. It may not be as hokey as god having a plan for humanity, but the way that complexity grows from simplicity speaks volumes to creative power of the laws of nature.

[Advocate]

LOL! How the fuck do you get that our solar system is in some remote part of the known universe? Did you read it on a map? No, you're just pulling that out of your ass. Also, how do you say sentient life obviously exists? Again, what possible evidence do you have to support this other than your own crackpot beliefs?

[g0zen]

You proved me right, good job.

[g0zen]

It's not so messy. And it may well be several forces, but it does seem that the more we know about the universe, the fewer the forces of nature become, and the more complex the system for describing the interplay of these forces is. Doesn't seem unreasonable to think we may be able to reduce it further still. At the very least we shouldn't rule out the possibility.

It's more than unreasonable, it's irrelevant. It's trying to impose pseudo-scientific garbage on real observable science. We can't reduce everything to like the four basic elements, and we shouldn't try simply because we're searching for some skeleton key to all creation.

Bullshit. The universe can be described mathematically. You can't get more ordered than that.

Anything can be described mathematically, that doesn't mean it's a definitive or even accurate representation. There will never be a time when math eclipses observed astronomical data in the study of cosmology. I'll grant you that math is a big help, but it has its limitations. To try and frame the entire universe with it just doesn't work.

If protons and electrons repelled each other instead of attracting each other, nothing would exist. There is most certainly an order to existence. It may not be as hokey as god having a plan for humanity, but the way that complexity grows from simplicity speaks volumes to creative power of the laws of nature.

Just because protons and electrons attracted one another doesn't mean they're part of some grander design. They interacted that way and what became the material world is the outcome, if they didn't then there would have been a different outcome. To say that because it happened one way and not another that's there's some big architect (intelligent or not) is just dressing up supernatural deism in scientific clothing.

The complexity of matter and living organisms is not evidence for design. Not at all.

[Frogacuda]

It's more than unreasonable, it's irrelevant. It's trying to impose pseudo-scientific garbage on real observable science. We can't reduce everything to like the four basic elements, and we shouldn't try simply because we're searching for some skeleton key to all creation.

It's still bullshit for you to say you know it not to be the case, though. You don't.

Just because protons and electrons attracted one another doesn't mean they're part of some grander design. They interacted that way and what became the material world is the outcome, if they didn't then there would have been a different outcome. To say that because it happened one way and not another that's there's some big architect (intelligent or not) is just dressing up supernatural deism in scientific clothing.

The complexity of matter and living organisms is not evidence for design. Not at all.

You're not really grasping what I'm saying. I'm trying to explain away the need for a concept of God, not shoehorn him into a scientific viewpoint. Much of what is universally said of God could instead be said of the forces that do drive this universe, that do result in something like a design or a pattern, or evolution, or development, or whatever the hell you want to call it.

It doesn't matter if these forces came into being by chance or simply becase it is the very nature of what it is to exist. The point is that they do exist and they are fundamental.

[g0zen]

It's still bullshit for you to say you know it not to be the case, though. You don't.

Do I have metaphysical certitude? No, obviously not. But you're being a douche in that you're thumbing your nose against established science and proposing a wild supposition.

You're not really grasping what I'm saying. I'm trying to explain away the need for a concept of God, not shoehorn him into a scientific viewpoint. Much of what is universally said of God could instead be said of the forces that do drive this universe, that do result in something like a design or a pattern, or evolution, or development, or whatever the hell you want to call it.

No, you're trying to put a pseudo-spiritual label on something that is anything put. The God proposition is wrong, clearly, but you debase and degrade the interplaying forces in he universe by saying 'well let's just call that God'. It's just wrong, it doesn't act with an intelligence, with a design, nothing. It just acts, casting it as anything else is again just trying to force a square peg in the round hole.