best 2d fighter ever?

[Shikyoh]

I think Johnny took the words right from my mouth

"Garou MOTW is above all else. I'm no expert when it comes to the genre, so I can't go into great detail as to why I love the game so much, so I'm just going to say control. It's just very responsive, and intuitive. Honorable mentions go out to Last Blade 2 and SF Alpha 3. Again mainly due to control. "

[BonusKun]

You know, I really find this funny. I've been playing Garou: Mark of the Wolves Since it's release on NeoMVS. I've played it, stomped it, dug into it & it's still one of my most favorite 2D Fighting games I've ever played.

To be honest tho it doesn't deserve the title of greatest 2D fighter. The game tho popular, fun & good isn't what shouldn't be described as the greatest 2D fighter but the fighters that have lasted not only the test of time but are still enjoyed by people to this day. Only 2 titles get that respect from me. Those are of course...

Super Street Fighter II Turbo & Samurai Shodown II!

Those games set a standard which is what I feel the benchmark of a great 2D fighter should be based upon. Sure you have tagging, grooves, parrys, canceling and all sorts of new features but for me it's those titles that clearly for me had myself coming back to play again & again just for the sake of the game and competition. If anything I love Garou to death it deserves high marks from me but, it's not the greatest....not yet.

Until that day comes it will be a title worthy of the greatest respect from me. Thank you SNK & Capcom for making my days of gaming even more better than ever...

~BonusKun

[Red_venom]

Hm. I havent read the whole thread, but I mostly want to touch on the SF3:3S vs MvC2 debate. Or just the hating on MvC2 altogether... I would say that people who call MvC2 cheap or repetitive probably have not played it too much. If you want to say guard breaks are cheap, remember that there are a few frames in 3S where the opponent hits the ground from a jump they are completely open to attacks(Its just about as easy to do as guard break in MvC2 imo), its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do). Compare a guard break in MvC2 with that, the damage ratio's are not too different. MvC2 is also one of the LEAST button masher friendly games out, its not hard for a button masher in CvS2/SF3/Alpha 3 to mash buttons and get lucky a few times using random high-priority moves. In MvC2 its pretty easy to not let a button masher move, because of assists being in the game its much easier to come up with a routine where you almost never get hit. MvC2 also emphasizes(IMO) consistant good play and use of patterns(Because of the way assists affect the fight strategically), whereas other games tend to focus less on that and more on your ability to know what works(Knowing what moves have more priority than others, or when to use them) in a slower 1 on 1 situation. Bah. I dont even know what I am saying, the games are certainly more the same than they are different though. MvC2 just uses a larger scale for everything.
To keep related to the thread, I think the best fighting game ever is probably SF3:3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

[Will]

I think the greatest and I concur with Bonus is Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, then Revival since it's arcade perfect(almost).
Next would be CVS2, Alpha 3,Garou, KOF series, GG, GGX, .

[StriderKyo]

Originally posted by Will


Recently or a long time ago? I didn't see you there too many times if at all.

Er, I was talking to MarkRyan. You just told me Spider Man was going to be bigger than Attack of the Clones. Actually, you were alot closer than I would have figured.

[StriderKyo]

Originally posted by Red_venom
Hm. I havent read the whole thread, but I mostly want to touch on the SF3:3S vs MvC2 debate. Or just the hating on MvC2 altogether... I would say that people who call MvC2 cheap or repetitive probably have not played it too much. If you want to say guard breaks are cheap,

AAAGGHHH!!! Nobody said guard breaks were cheap! We all said they weren't!

remember that there are a few frames in 3S where the opponent hits the ground from a jump they are completely open to attacks(Its just about as easy to do as guard break in MvC2 imo), its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do). Compare a guard break in MvC2 with that, the damage ratio's are not too different.

Er, I wouldn't say hitting a guy when he lands from a jump, which has always been in street fighter (and is in MvC as well) and guard breaks in a game where you can hit your opponent 50 times before they can do anything is quite the same thing, but whatever.

MvC2 is also one of the LEAST button masher friendly games out, its not hard for a button masher in CvS2/SF3/Alpha 3 to mash buttons and get lucky a few times using random high-priority moves.

Okay, stop this. Please. You know what happens if you mash in a normal SF game? Nothing. You flail about uselessly with random punches and kicks coming out of you, not going anywhere. Guy blocks, you die. Maybe you'll get an uppercut out. It'll miss.

If I sit there mashing buttons in MvC2, all my friends come out and attack my opponent for me. Screen filling projectiles fly out from every orifice. If I jump at the opponent while doing this, I'll get at least a 3-4 hit combo out of it. I know, because that's what I did way back on Marvel Superheroes and I could beat other people who also didn't know how to play the game yet.

Nobody in the history of gaming has won a single round of SF mashing buttons, unless they were playing a paraplegic or someone who's also mashing, so somebody (eventually) has to win.

SF3 mashing = Nothing happens.
MvC2 mashing = All kinds of stuff happens.

You won't win anything in either one mashing, but I've seen friends who never play fighting games get to the third fight against the computer with just Servbot, Sentinel and a whole lot of controller smashing.

To keep related to the thread, I think the best fighting game ever is probably SF3:3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 3.

Ugogirl! Nobody here's saying MvC's bad, just disputing Mark's argument that it's the best because it's more technical and complex.

[StriderKyo]

Originally posted by Shikyoh
I think Johnny took the words right from my mouth

"Honorable mentions go out to Last Blade 2"

I just can't get into this game. I want to, but I find the opposite - the control's not as tight as Garou, KoF or Samsho (which it's clearly trying to be). The game has suck a lightweight feel to it - when I hit someone, it feels like I did it with a feather. Great theme, some cool characters, but I can't see why people think it's great when there's so many fighters I'd put ahead of it on both Geo and DC.

[MechDeus]

Originally posted by Tain
Apharmd. Now the question: Apharmd B or Apharmd S? They both have the same left weapon, which includes the dropkick bomb (right-turbo LW). Apharmd B has the tongfers, and is the king of CC. Apharmd S is the "heavier" variant, more tooled to combat outside of CC.

Apharmd S, I believe. I've run through most of them, and he seems to fit the way I like to play better then some others. Though I've been meaning to learn Specineff just 'cause he looks so damn cool. I tried to learn Cypher, but his regular attacks were too weak for me, I didn't like the way they worked.

[MechDeus]

Originally posted by StriderKyo
Okay, stop this. Please. You know what happens if you mash in a normal SF game? Nothing. You flail about uselessly with random punches and kicks coming out of you, not going anywhere. Guy blocks, you die. Maybe you'll get an uppercut out. It'll miss.

Funnily enough, the only person who said anything about MvC2 being a button-masher was MarkRyan. I then stated it was more a string-memorizer. A more fitting term, I think.

On the concept of button-mashing, a party was held at my house tonight. I didn't want to be there, but wanted to stay and protect my stuff, so I played fighting games (specifically, DOA3 and SFIII:TS) all night, and got a few challengers. Needless to say, they were all more knowledgable about how DOA3 worked then they were on SFIII:TS.

I got a button-masher in SFIII:TS (I use three-round matches, lowest damage setting and largest energy bars, if I remember it all correctly, been a long time since I actually set the options) and for the first time in a long time, fought a newbie at the game. I hadn't realized it before, simply because everyone else I've faced has played Street Fighter at some point to where they had at least a basic idea of the Ken/Ryu move list, but this guy was pure button-masher, nothing but light and medium punches/kicks. He didn't win a single round until the last fight, and I never parried. I picked Hugo for our last match and he picked Gill (it's not like he knew any better), and he won that last fight three to two. Not too shabby considering I had to plow through two energy bars to win a round and was using one of the characters I suck with.

its not hard to lead that opening into a combo(Can range from 5-50% of someones life), or even a c.roundhouse with Ryu/Ken(Be about 10% damage to most characters, very easy to do).

Yes, but the 50% can only be done with the aid of a Super in SFIII, and only certain Supers at that. MvC2 can do 100% with regular moves.

A point that hasn't been mentioned, desicions. In SFIII, one must choose their Super to use, you don't have access to everything, and must pick what you think will work against your opponent. A little more thought and planning is needed here, as some Supers are almost completely worthless against some opponents, and there's few chain Supers (MvC2, anyone?). This really affects how the Super game works, seeing as how smaller, less powerful Supers can charge up faster to be dispersed throughout regular attacking, while strong ones require more time and attacking/defending to gain access.

[MarkRyan]

Originally posted by MechDeus
I feel that the moves should be an equal level of usefullness, with no moves dominating over others to that characters rely simply on one and can rip through others with that alone.

Oh, so you want Mortal Kombat II. Go play Mortal Kombat II where all the characters have basically the same moves. You don't want anyone to have an advantage. You'd like them all to be the same. Sounds like fun .

Originally posted by MechDeus
Wrong. I've seen infinites both in my own living room and videos on the ... Now, you seem to not grasp what the word "infinite" means. In fighting games, an infinite would be a combo from which 100% damage is given, because it is "infinite", i.e. without end. So I've seen 100% damage combos.

Don't tell me I'm wrong, you numbwit. Re-dizzies mean that all "infinites" can never be true infinites because the opponent will FLY into the air (RE-DIZZY, get it?) after about 50 hits of any infinite. Did you read that? Fifty hits of an infinite = about 60% damage max. Now STFU.

Originally posted by MechDeus
Along with that, parrying allows one to negate block damage, and I find purposefully killing through that stupid.

You consider it stupid? Strange, because where I'm from, it's considered intelligent. Your opponent is near death... You have the chance to kill him, and by doing so you win the match. Usually our goal is the win the match. If we throw away the opportunity to kill them with chip damage because we're too damned honorable for that, and we get killed, you know what that makes us? It makes us pretty stupid.

Originally posted by StriderKyo
Like Mech said, you misunderstood what I'm talking about. I don't care about redizzies, I'm talking about when Iron Man launches->air combo-> uni beam->air dash->repeat ad nauseum, until you're dead. ... Your example also breaks down, because the MvC characters are each equal to a round in SF3, not a single energy bar. If SF3 had you losing entire rounds on single combos, then it'd be busted too.

No, StriderKyo, you misunderstand. You can't NOT CARE about re-dizzies - they make infinites NOT infinite. That was Capcom's remedy since they KNEW there was no way to tame an engine so robust and flexible. As I said above, re-dizzies make any "infinite" terminate at around 50 hits. And with damage scaling, 50 hits is about 60% damage. Do you get that? Thank you. As far as the damage comparison goes, I think you have a valid point, though since the games handle "matches" so differently (if you compared it straight-forwardly, you'd get messed up when a character survives with 30% health and continues to be a factor even though two different fighters are involved - in other words, even if you win a primary match-up, you don't get your health restored, and you don't lose the advantage you gained).

Originally posted by StriderKyo
Except for the infinites, 100%s and unbreakable corner traps. If your idea of a good time is watching some guy slowly whittle your helpless character down to dead because he hit you first, then great. SF3 offers a defensive option for every situation. You honestly canavoid everything, while MvC2 just says "oops, you're in the corner. You suck, you're dead".

I discussed infinites. There's no such thing as a 100% unbreakable trap (or anything even close, short of Strider/Doom, an archaic team). You're not DOA if you get cornered in MvC2. Again, you show how little you know about this game.

Originally posted by StriderKyo
I didn't see anyone criticizing guard breaks, since you're right, they show up in everything, not just Capcom fighters. But since by your own admition you haven't played much Mark of the Wolves or Third Strike, and don't get them, are you really qualified to say MvC2 is "light years ahead" of them?

I'll quote the post right under this reply so you can see that guard breaks were bitched about. As far as me saying that MvC2 is light years ahead, I think I can safely say that, as far as the evolution of fighting games. Street Fighter III, what, innovated parrying? Other than that, the basic formula is not very different at all from the aged Super Turbo. MvC2 innovates in so many ways. It is unlike any game before it, and that's INCLUDING previous Versus games - MvC1, XSF, MSF - they're all entirely different games than MvC2.

Originally posted by Apokryphos
And you say that it's the brokenness that makes MvC2, but the first time I had my incoming character's guard broken by a glitch, then killed by a triple AHVB by another glitch, without me having any chance of avoiding it, well, that's when I said this game has jumped the shark.

There you go. That's what I responded to.

Originally posted by StriderKyo Of course we're interested, that's the whole point of this thread. Don't take it personally when we say you're nuts, I mean it like I'd say it to a friend if he told me Oprah was hot. Besides, you are nuts. You're the same guy who told me in GF Tavern back when that Guilty Gear on Playstation was the best fighting game ever made, better than any Street Fighter or SNK game. All the time.

Good. Then without further ado...